rye bread and sourdough starters

[feather]

I'm going to be making some rye bread in the near future. For the most part I'll make it with whole grain rye. There are flours considered a dark rye or pumpernickel flour, there is also a medium rye and a light rye flour.

Rye is notorious for not rising, at all, it has little to no gluten, so generally when making bread, some wheat is added, or just gluten, so it rises a little. Traditional rye breads rarely rose much at all, and they are cooked at a low temperature for a very long time, giving them the darker colors.

Danish, German, Norwegian...dark ryes.

If you've tried to use rye flour like wheat or white, you might be surprised how difficult it is to get it to rise. You end up with a fairly flat loaf.

So I'm not going to fight it. I'm going to make a dense dense loaf (or two), baked for many hours. I'll be adding wheat, oats, and nuts to it as well. This dense and moist bread will be cut thin once cooled, the next day. Usually this kind of bread whether it is soured or sweet is better toasted. (I'm using it for reubens which will be baked in the oven until crisped up. Plus rye bread is like crack to me, except I haven't tried crack.)

I found this recipe for a rye bread called: Westphalian Rye

www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/westphalian-rye-bread-recipe

24 ounces boiling water
5 1/4 ounces cracked wheat
2 ounces malted wheat flakes or rolled oats
1 tablespoon burnt sugar syrup, or 2 teaspoons caramel color, black cocoa, or burnt sugar made from 1/3 cup sugar (See "tips", below.)
15 ounces pumpernickel flour
4 ounces King Arthur 100% White Whole Wheat Flour
1/4 teaspoon instant yeast
2 1/2 teaspoons salt
7/8 ounce vegetable oil

The bread dough ferments or rises (little) or mellows for 12-24 hours. Then it is put in loaves and left to rise, though it really won't rise much. Then it is baked for 5 hours at a low baking temperature. Then cooled wrapped and refrigerated (or frozen). It has a long shelf life.

I figured a few people here might have some experience with rye bread. Any suggestions?

[Skandi]

One tip do NOT let it rise much before baking, 30minutes max. It will rise a lot more than that but when you bake it it then collapses in the oven and it will be wet and sticky in the middle no matter how long you cook it for. Danish rye bread does not keep by the way, it keeps 3-4 days before going either rock hard, or moldy so freezing is the best option, a traditional danish rye has NO wheat flour in it. but most now do as to be honest plain rye is not very nice! A quick look at danish ryes including the 100% rye show that it takes 4 days to make the bread but only 1.5hours to bake,

[kkbhf]

Doing rye loaves is on my round toit list. I've been contemplating the recipe at grainmaker.com/rye-bread-recipe/

Ingredients

• 2 1/2 Cups Warm Water
  2 Pkgs. Dry Yeast
  1/3 Cup Honey
  3 Tbsp. Olive Oil
  1 Tbsp. Salt
  1/3 Cup Instant Dry Milk
  2 Eggs
  2 Tbsp. Caraway Seeds
  4 to 4 1/2 Cups Fresh Ground Rye Flour
  2 Tbsp. Dough Enhancer
  

Her Dough Enhancer is at grainmaker.com/bread-dough-enhancer/ and works nicely in whole wheat loaves as well.

[feather]

Skandi, The danish ryes do seem to be more like solid bricks, cut thin, often toasted. I may try one, but right now I think I'm aiming for a German Rye. It's a heavy german rye.

kkbhf, interesting dough enhancer. Lots of the recipes I've looked through, especially if they are heavy with rye flour, have lots of additives like lecithin, potato, milk powder, and some add vital wheat gluten too--since rye has some acid and the lack of gluten issues.

This recipe was on the back of the rye flour bag.
German Dark Rye Bread by Hodgson Mill

2 pkgs of H. active dry yeast
2 cups of warm water
1/4 cup of brown sugar
1/4 cup of molasses
3 and 1/2 cups of H Rye Flour
2 T. H vital wheat gluten
3 T. cocoa powder
1 T. Caraway seeds (opt)
1/4 cup melted butter
2 t. salt
2 and 1/2 to 3 and 1/2 cups of bread flour

400 deg F oven, 2 greased 9x5 loaf pans, 28 minutes.

As I was reading up on rye breads I came across this method. It's called Autolyse, and it is essentially adding the water to the rye flour (without salt) and letting it sit so that the water is soaked up into the flour. If the flour is quite large, it takes longer, a finely ground flour will take less time. 20 minutes to 3 hours. www.bakerybits.co.uk/resources/autolyse-what-why-how/

And this talks a lot about German Rye breads.
www.nytimes.com/1998/07/15/dining/the-miracle-of-rye-in-germany-and-among-some-here-rye-bread-is-a-spiritual-thing.html

''Holy and eternal is bread. It keeps you from hunger and misery. The Creator himself gave it to us. He who dishonors bread dishonors life itself.''

[Skandi]

feather, Never seen rye bread toasted, The only thing they toast here is what they call "toast bread" which is what I call sliced white.

As to the soaking time, the Rye flour they use here for a standard loaf feels like builders sand, it's very very coarse, which is why the recipes take several days of soaking/fermenting to make. It's also why I have horrible issues getting what I consider Brown "Bread" flour i.e finely ground but wholemeal flour. Trying to get a decent protein % is also difficult Danish wheat is very poor quality.

[feather]

Skandi, it's good to hear you talk about it and certainly more informative as to what it is really like living in Denmark. Most of the stuff I have said, is what I've read about from internet people, which may be real or not real.

I've heard cooks describe the dough for Danish rye, and heavy German Rye, as 'like clay' and not much like stretchy dough at all.

I was reading this one Danish rye bread: www.daringgourmet.com/easy-danish-rye-bread-rugbrod/

Why do are they using whole flax seeds? I thought whole flax seeds were not digested in the whole form, so I buy ground flax seed. I wonder if I could use that in a bread recipe instead.

[Skandi]

A lot of the breads here have them in and yes always whole, they are there more for interest and texture so I would replace with sunflower (also very common) or sesame rather than ground. Yes the dough looks like mortar for laying bricks! One of the things they like to put in here is finely grated carrot, actually works really well!

Her bread looks great and it looks and sounds exactly like what is in the shops here.

EDIT I'm also very jealous of her grain storage shelves..

[feather]

Since we won't get to cut into the bread for 3 days!!! I started the westphalian bread from the first link. www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/westphalian-rye-bread-recipe
I am staying as true to the recipe as I can. I had red wheat which I ran through the food processor for the cracked wheat. And I used oats. And I used cocoa. And I used white unbleached flour instead of white whole wheat flour, since I didn't have any on hand. Without another trip to the grocery store, it's pretty close to the recipe.

Then I started some rye sourdough starter which will take a week to ferment completely but many of the rye bread recipes use a sourdough starter because, they say, it raises rye bread better than using dry active yeast.

EDIT: Skandi, it's getting late and the dough is like mortar! It's ugly. Have mercy! How this will turn into bread, I don't know. I stuck it covered in the oven, with the light on for the night. I'll bake it tomorrow afternoon.

[Skandi]

Have faith feather.. and good luck, the couple of times I have tried at home you could use the result as a brick maybe we could team up I'm lucky my local bakers is famous for their rye bread.

[feather]

Nov 10, 2018 7:41:39 GMT Skandi said:

Have faith feather.. and good luck, the couple of times I have tried at home you could use the result as a brick maybe we could team up I'm lucky my local bakers is famous for their rye bread.

Faith faith..I'm trying here. Well, putting it into the pan is like putting massaged poop , I mean mortar into the pan. As a last ditch effort I took 1 t. yeast in warm water and massaged that into it before putting them into greased pans. It took wet hands to smooth out the top and press it into the pans. I have a large loaf and a small casserole dish. Now they rise for an hour and 1/2, then baked for 5 hours. Due to the size differences in the pans, I'll check the small one at 4 hours, and the large one at 6 hours.

[feather]

kkbhf , Skandi , I greased up foil to put over the pans and seal them so the moisture wouldn't escape. The little round pan was about 3/4th's of an inch above the top with dough, the large loaf pan was an inch and a quarter above the top of the dough. So when I put the greased foil on them to seal them, it was flat across the tops of the pans.

It looks like the bread is now AT the top of the pans!!!!!!!! (pressing on the foil tops!) OMG That means they rose a little and that means there will be holes in them giving them a bread like texture instead of baked mud. I'm so happy!

The first one will be done in an hour and the next one done in 3 hours. Then they cool and tomorrow I cut them. Yes I will post pictures. Yay!

[Skandi]

I can't wait.. lets hope you avoid the soggy middle!

[kkbhf]

Fingers crossed!

Do post pics please.

[feather]

No soggy middle and it tastes great!

[feather]

I had some with homemade cream cheese....OMG this is crack! lol

[Skandi]

You had better start off the next batch then

[feather]

Nov 11, 2018 22:03:16 GMT Skandi said:

You had better start off the next batch then

Yeah except DH wants a lighter rye. So that sour dough rye starter is on the end of day 2, and the next batch of rye will be a lighter better rising rye. He also didn't like that this heavy dark rye pumpernickel doesn't have a crust of it's own because it was essentially steamed and not baked. So I'll figure a rye that rises, bakes, with sour dough for the next batch.

[Skandi]

It's a staple here, something that looks cery similar to yours there, though normaly with more grains whole is always served for lunch. A typical danish day would be:

Breakfast

A bowl of a type of thick milk/thin yogurt with a bit of muesli on top
Or Oats
Or on Sundays/holidays, white bread rolls fresh from the bakers with cheese/butter/cold meats

Lunch
Rye bread with fish/meat toppings often hot toppings

Diner
Meat with potatoes and veg

If you want something different but here very traditional try "Skidne Æg" Eggs in a Mustard sauce served hot on rye bread, up here they are boiled until half done (about 6 minutes) peeled and then put into a cream and mustard sauce, simmered until they are how done you like them and then topped with a bit of crispy bacon. The eggs should be totally covered in sauce, not these pictures I see with a little drizzle over the top.
It's an Easter dish, Easter meal consists of a first course of pickled herring, hardboiled eggs and "curry salad" (mayo/cremefresh pickles, apples, diced egg white and curry powder) on rye bread followed by these eggs also on rye.
I do the eggs more often than once a year as we've normally got a ton of the things!

[feather]

Well, Skandi, I was so suddenly hungry, when I read your post, I said....cream, brown mustard, 2 eggs poached in it over the rye bread.....yes that sounds good.
So that's what I did. It was delicious. It went really well together, the cream/mustard/eggs over the rye. It's a really nice combination. I'll do that again any day. Thank you.

[feather]

I sent a hunk of the loaf of bread to my best friend, with cheese. I haven't heard back but she loves whole grained and in return she sent me black tea kumbacha and hibiscus kumbacha. They are in bottles with clamps over gaskets and seals to keep in the fizz. I love this girl, she is so positive and kind and open to new things and I learn from her.

I'm on day 4 of feeding the sour dough starter. The sign that it is ready to bake bread is to see it double in size (bubbles) within 6-8 hours of feeding it more water and flour. We aren't there yet. I'm not seeing much bubbling.

[freelove]

Just in case the starter doesn't work out, King Arthur Flour sells a fresh sourdough starter that is excellent. It takes off immediately and has great rising power. It is a white starter, but once you feed it you can take some out to make rye, wheat or what ever you want.

www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/classic-fresh-sourdough-starter-1-oz

[feather]

Nov 14, 2018 13:26:49 GMT freelove said:

Just in case the starter doesn't work out, King Arthur Flour sells a fresh sourdough starter that is excellent. It takes off immediately and has great rising power. It is a white starter, but once you feed it you can take some out to make rye, wheat or what ever you want.

www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/classic-fresh-sourdough-starter-1-oz

I am overly stubborn.....I appreciate your thoughts though.

I will make this work, this homemade starter, without buying one.

Someone might need to knock me over the head to get me there.

The first batch is all rye, then I added white wheat, then a little natural fermented vinegar.

I'm on day 5 some some small bubbles and no idea if it is working.

So I started another batch with white wheat, today, some red wheat whole grains, some white wine. It ought to work.

I need it by Thanksgiving or before or both. The little bit of white wine is german, it has been in the cabinet for almost a year, opened, and I know that has yeast. I'm going to keep trying now, for the next week.

[freelove]

I used to be overly stubborn about things like that too, but then I realized that sometimes there were better ways to achieve my goals without compromising too much. I tried and tried to get a starter that would work and I had some good ones going, but they didn't rise well. So when I made my starter using the tried and true from K.A. my bread finally rose.

Good luck!

[feather]

freelove, thanks! I hear you, I do.

[feather]

I have the two starters. They weren't bubbling even though I added more flour and water each day, so I plunked in a couple grapes in each of them. Grapes are supposed to have natural yeasts on them.

Today, I see a few bubbles in the dark rye one, questionable but possible. The light flour one, not so much. So I'm feeding the bubbling by adding just a tsp of honey. Yeast like to eat honey. This is unfiltered honey so probably some yeasts in there too.

I'm going to feed them flour and water later after I see the effects of the honey. If any. Some of us are so stubborn!

[feather]

Sourdough starter 1 is the whole grained rye flour starter. It's on day 11. The goal is to double in size in 6-8 hours and currently it doubled in 15 hours. So I'll step up the feeding and add rye flour and water twice a day. I might be able to make bread for Thanksgiving.

Starter 2 is white flour, a few rye grains. It's on day 6. It has a few bubbles on the top but it hasn't doubled up at all yet.

I'll strain out the grapes, whole grains of rye, and half the starters before feeding them. They need to go in clean jars because the ones they are in are pretty gummy and messy.

[feather]

Still working on recalcitrant sour dough starters. They may grow legs before they grow yeast.

[dustawaits]

feather, interesting search for starting sourdough.
I had a really nice one and shared it. Then somehow I lost it and had to start over.
Three time I started and threw it out. Now I have a very nice one. I use all purpose flour
and spring water . In 3 to 7 days it is ready.
In my research non GMO flour makes the best sourdough.

[feather]

Dec 11, 2018 23:34:56 GMT dustawaits said:

feather , interesting search for starting sourdough.
I had a really nice one and shared it. Then somehow I lost it and had to start over.
Three time I started and threw it out. Now I have a very nice one. I use all purpose flour
and spring water . In 3 to 7 days it is ready.
In my research non GMO flour makes the best sourdough.

I still have the two starters going.

The whole grained rye starter is doing much of nothing, only growing about 15% each time I feed it.

The white flour starter is now growing about 50-75% in height each time I feed it.

The problem for me, is that I'm trying to eat whole grained and avoid the white flour/sugar.

I love the sourish taste of sourdough breads.

[dustawaits]

Sourdough bread is more digestible.
I have not tried the rye because it can grow very unpleasant
and even harmful yeasts.
There is a safe way to make rye sourdough starter but I do not
know the recipe. If I make rye bread I use my regular starter.

Where I live the Amish have a bulk store. They try to obtain only GMO free
staples but they do offer both kinds. They bake and sell bread from the GMO free flour.