Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 1:31:08 GMT
I have been doing some reading on no-till gardening and I like what are said to be many of the advantages of gardening with this method.
I just have not been able to reconcile in my mind the no-till part with growing a cover crop and tilling it under for use as a green manure.
Can someone explain no-till gardening to me or at least point me toward some good reading about it (with step-by-step instructions), especially as it pertains to using this method in conjunction with raised beds? |
|
|
|
Post by Raeven on May 2, 2015 1:43:57 GMT
There are lots of ways to do no-till. In truth, there is no such thing as total "no-till," because even digging a little hole for transplants or cutting a row to direct sow is "tilling" of a kind. But the idea is to keep it to a minimum, to disturb the soil as little as possible. When I'm doing pure no-till, I don't plant cover crops. I cover the dirt with cardboard and straw. When it's time to plant, I cut a seed row in between the straw flakes and through the cardboard, plant, cover with compost and disturb the mulch the tiniest bit. When I covered my entire garden in this manner, it lasted for 3 years before weeds made a reappearance. This is how it looked: ![]()   Nowadays, straw has gotten much more costly, so I'm looking into the cover crop approach as practiced by @jwal10 and @karlintn. You plant the cover crop, then instead of tilling, you cut it, let it lie and act as mulch on top of the soil. Then proceed as I indicated above. No reason I can think of why you couldn't do the same in a raised bed as a regular garden. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 1:55:57 GMT
When you cover with the straw do you mulch it down into real small pieces or do you just rip it out of the bale as is and spread it around to the desired height?
I used both straw this past winter in some beds and planted a cover crop (winter rye) in others. The problem with the straw was that it was extremely seedy and many of them sprouted. It was a bit of a pain in the neck having to pull them all.
The winter rye that I seeded did really well and I periodically trimmed it down for use in the compost bins over the winter(an added bonus that I did not anticipate). When I tilled the rye grass under I noticed that the root system was quite thick and very difficult to break up. I could not help but wonder how I would go about planting tomatoes, peppers, squash and such into that thick root system.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 1:58:33 GMT
So when you figure it out you are going to share your newfound know-how? 
|
|
|
|
Post by Raeven on May 2, 2015 2:06:14 GMT
When I get straw, I do inquire about how seed-free it is. Some straw bales are better than others, that's sure. It also helps that I run my chickens over it as soon as I lay it down. LOL, they'd clean up every seed they could find!
I lay it out in full flakes, which are quite thick over the cardboard. I had one little patch that sprouted wheat... it was easy to pull up. I just laid fresh flakes over the sprouted bits and that took care of the problem.
After 3 years, I tilled it under with the old TB Horse. But in 10 years of gardening this patch, I've only tilled 3 times. Not STRICTLY no-till -- but Very-Much-Reduced till! It helps your soil so much.
As far as your winter rye root system is concerned, if the rye has died, then the roots pose no problem. They will just compost and contribute to the health of the soil. If the rye is still alive, however...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:08:16 GMT
TRellis, look farther down the page at the cover crops thread. That should help you understand what she meant. Also, I'm pretty sure Raeven said she put cardboard down before the straw. The pics look like the straw is not chopped up fine; just pulled apart and spread. Maybe she could tell you better.
Winter rye is an annual. If its growth is interrupted at the right time, it's not supposed to grow back. The roots would just decompose. They wouldn't compete with growing veggies.
|
|
|
|
Post by Raeven on May 2, 2015 2:09:25 GMT
So when you figure it out you are going to share your newfound know-how?
LOL, here's a link I like: Pay Attention!!  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:20:07 GMT
When I get straw, I do inquire about how seed-free it is. Some straw bales are better than others, that's sure. It also helps that I run my chickens over it as soon as I lay it down. LOL, they'd clean up every seed they could find! I lay it out in full flakes, which are quite thick over the cardboard. I had one little patch that sprouted wheat... it was easy to pull up. I just laid fresh flakes over the sprouted bits and that took care of the problem. After 3 years, I tilled it under with the old TB Horse. But in 10 years of gardening this patch, I've only tilled 3 times. Not STRICTLY no-till -- but Very-Much-Reduced till! It helps your soil so much. As far as your winter rye root system is concerned, if the rye has died, then the roots pose no problem. They will just compost and contribute to the health of the soil. If the rye is still alive, however...
When I asked and/or commented about the seediness of the straw at the location where I purchased it, all I got was a, "Huh?" look. I must deal with the only farm/feed store where a slightly educated customer knows more than the guy running the store.
I do not have any chickens, unfortunately. But, can I rent yours? Believe me they will be well fed from all of the hay seed. 
That may be part of the problem that I had with the winter rye. In order to plant potatoes, cabbage and such in March I had to till the rye grass under in February (a month earlier) and it was far from dead. In fact it was seemingly just getting going!!!
So, maybe I should use straw on those beds that will be planted early in the spring and possibly use a cover crop in those beds that will be planted later?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:24:42 GMT
Winter rye is an annual. If its growth is interrupted at the right time, it's not supposed to grow back. The roots would just decompose. They wouldn't compete with growing veggies.
Ohhhh! I interrupted its growth for sure!!
I cut it down as close to the ground as I could and then tilled it down a good 10 inches or so. I had read where a cover crop should be tilled about a month or so before wanting to plant. Something about giving the green manure a chance to decompose and not steal from the planted vegetables abilities to grow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:26:02 GMT
So when you figure it out you are going to share your newfound know-how?
LOL, here's a link I like: Pay Attention!!
How is it that I knew that the title of the article you linked was not "Pay Attention!"
|
|
|
|
Post by Raeven on May 2, 2015 2:27:52 GMT
When I get straw, I do inquire about how seed-free it is. Some straw bales are better than others, that's sure. It also helps that I run my chickens over it as soon as I lay it down. LOL, they'd clean up every seed they could find! I lay it out in full flakes, which are quite thick over the cardboard. I had one little patch that sprouted wheat... it was easy to pull up. I just laid fresh flakes over the sprouted bits and that took care of the problem. After 3 years, I tilled it under with the old TB Horse. But in 10 years of gardening this patch, I've only tilled 3 times. Not STRICTLY no-till -- but Very-Much-Reduced till! It helps your soil so much. As far as your winter rye root system is concerned, if the rye has died, then the roots pose no problem. They will just compost and contribute to the health of the soil. If the rye is still alive, however...
When I asked and/or commented about the seediness of the straw at the location where I purchased it, all I got was a, "Huh?" look. I must deal with the only farm/feed store where a slightly educated customer knows more than the guy running the store.
I do not have any chickens, unfortunately. But, can I rent yours? Believe me they will be well fed from all of the hay seed.
That may be part of the problem that I had with the winter rye. In order to plant potatoes, cabbage and such in March I had to till the rye grass under in February (a month earlier) and it was far from dead. In fact it was seemingly just getting going!!!
So, maybe I should use straw on those beds that will be planted early in the spring and possibly use a cover crop in those beds that will be planted later?
Ehhh, those "Huh?" look farm store guys are everywhere, I promise you. I tend to buy my straw from private sellers by the several tons, and that does seem to make a difference. I always break open a random bale and have a good look before committing to the purchase. You probably don't need to do that, though. I'd be happy to loan you my chickens, but I am chickenless at the moment thanks to a stupidly-self-engineered skunk invasion in my hen house last fall.  By the way, if you want to avoid tilling altogether, just mow or scythe the green cover crop, then layer cardboard and straw on top of the untilled greens. It works just dandy and will enrich you soil very well. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:28:30 GMT
No-till is the only way we can go with our extra rocky quack-grassy soil. I just used the same holes to plant in, over and over, and the holes were the only places manure got worked into. It worked great.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:33:26 GMT
Winter rye is an annual. If its growth is interrupted at the right time, it's not supposed to grow back. The roots would just decompose. They wouldn't compete with growing veggies.
Ohhhh! I interrupted its growth for sure!!
I cut it down as close to the ground as I could and then tilled it down a good 10 inches or so. I had read where a cover crop should be tilled about a month or so before wanting to plant. Something about giving the green manure a chance to decompose and not steal from the planted vegetables abilities to grow.
Yeah, TRellis. That's what I did too. I've read one month of waiting as well as two weeks...or so. That from online and the farm co-op guy. I'm tilling mine in soon. Possum. According to several university ag sites, as well as our local co-op, the idea is to catch the winter rye just as its developing seed heads (while they're still green and immature). What grew in yours was ripe seed in the hay maybe? |
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:33:37 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:40:08 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:40:37 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Raeven on May 2, 2015 2:42:26 GMT
Looks awesome, Elk!! Already with the tomatoes... I'm so jealous!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:43:43 GMT
a back to eden method i combined with permaculture thought...i bed with a pear tree,rhubarb,4 holes i dug and filled with black dirt and put t post for support for tomato or pepper plants. after doing this i noticed asparagus start popping up on its own.  |
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:44:58 GMT
Looks awesome, Elk!! Already with the tomatoes... I'm so jealous!!! no no no...last years garden...its still hitting 32f here...lol...i may cry just showing what can be done and trying to encourage others to do whatever method they choose to use. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:46:30 GMT
I tend to buy my straw from private sellers by the several tons, and that does seem to make a difference. I always break open a random bale and have a good look before committing to the purchase. You probably don't need to do that, though.
No... I bought about six bales this past year and that was more than enough for half of my small garden. Actually I may need a little more though. If I were to open up a bale to check it for seediness, I believe that I would be obligated to buy it. This place is funny that way.
I had lots of seed from winter rye coming up in my garden from laying down hay. It was a real pain. Never again.
I agree, but I may be forced to use straw for those beds that will be planted early in the year. And I just noticed that you wrote "hay" and not "straw". Intentional??? Because I have always been under the impression that "hay" was supposed to have seeds and "straw was just supposed to be the stalk without the seed head.
|
|
|
|
Post by Raeven on May 2, 2015 2:47:03 GMT
Looks awesome, Elk!! Already with the tomatoes... I'm so jealous!!! no no no...last years garden...its still hitting 32f here...lol...i may cry ROFL, oh, good -- I feel better now!!! I can plant tomatoes in two weeks but probably won't this year. Thank goodness for our incredible local farm stores!! |
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:51:40 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:54:26 GMT
Thanks for the link elk, but I am going to have to watch that at some other time. It is getting late, the hockey game is in overtime (next goal wins) and I do need my beauty sleep.
Badly!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 2:55:44 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:57:27 GMT
TRellis, Around here, if you buy from a farm co-op or a big box store, you're going to get a dry grass-like substance containing various types of grass and weeds, which may or may not be accompanied by their respective seed heads.
Only that's too long to put on the sign, so they call it whatever three or four letter word they can spell.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 3:05:45 GMT
Those permaculture pics look great elk. Easy to tell you put in the work on those beds. I got a question, though. When your fruit trees start to produce, and whatever veggies you have planted then are filling out, covering their respective areas, and setting their various fruit, how will you get all around the tree to pick fruit without stomping on the veggie plants?..................................
Very carefully?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 3:06:18 GMT
TRellis, Around here, if you buy from a farm co-op or a big box store, you're going to get a dry grass-like substance containing various types of grass and weeds, which may or may not be accompanied by their respective seed heads. Only that's too long to put on the sign, so they call it whatever three or four letter word they can spell.
Are you trying to tell me that you are from the smart part of Tennessee? LOL!!! 
|
|
|
|
Post by elkhound on May 2, 2015 3:12:22 GMT
theres only 4 holes for transplants for items like peppers and tomatoes. the asparagus will be harvested early and will only be a fern.they can take a bit of abuse. that bed is actually very narrow and that tree canopy will be mostly outside the bed...unless...unless i get crazy and decide to espiler it like a rose bush upwards and hold its height at say 8ft with limbs spread out like an oriental fan shape.i dont think it will be an issue..but i am 6.2 also...so got a decent reach.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 3:14:44 GMT
I just thought of another possible problem that I can foresee with using a cover crop.
I like to companion plant and do quite a bit of it. Actually I do it in every garden bed and it seems to be working quite well for me. Part of that is to include garlic and onions in the front of the beds and then have peppers and basil behind that with the tomatoes in the back row. The garlic is planted in the fall, the onion in early spring and the tomatoes and such in late spring. I guess that I am going to have hybrid beds that will have some things already growing in it, some parts covered with straw and the rest planted with a cover crop.
This is getting very complicated, my brain is smoking, the hockey game is over and I am tired.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 3:16:08 GMT
"Are you trying to tell me that you are from the smart part of Tennessee? LOL!!! " I can neither confirm nor deny that rumor. I'll just say that, in some occupations, a warm body on the job everyday is the most important requirement for continued gainful employment. |
|
