Need help with rough collie

[dustawaits]

So I got this pup in May at 10 weeks. The first thing I noticed was he is terribly food picky.
Then I learned more.....I got him from a top breeder... but no the dam was of her breeding
the male? As of yet I know nothing of him. I did not know she was no longer breeding collies, 
just co- owning.

So instead of him coming from her place...he came from Washington state...with a terrible case of
Giardia . So I treated him for the next three months and I think he is well over it now.

I carefully watched him because if he did not eat for two days he would start dry heaving. I would put something on his food to get him to eat and he would clean up the entire bowl. As time went on he would eat maybe every day then start skipping. Now he eats no more often than every two days. He dumps every three to four days beside also having a small BM most days. Bladder is about the same.   DVM says nothing wrong with him but warns he could bloat.

He does not have a good attitude , is highly possessive, stubborn to the inth  degree and demanding. He trained early to sit , come, walk nice on the leash....then that was all forgotten. He became or tried to become boss of the household which meant me in no uncertain terms. Under no circumstances is an animal to be boss over a human. He saw me fall so I was weak.....nor hardly.

Do you see where this is heading? I fill his bowl with food and when it is empty I add.  When I am fixing food for myself he demands I feed him. I ignore him, he pouts.
i do not think this has come from her breeding but from the male. He does not near have the quality of the female. I just don’t know what else to do with him. He can not go back to the breeder. She also as I found later had some temperament problems with the other puppies in the litter.

[Maura]

Any half way decent breeder will take a puppy back. She should also give you money back, maybe not the entire amount, but most of it. Whoever owned the puppy, this woman or the person in Washington, needs to take back the puppy and refund your money. Breeders often co-own their bitches. Basically, they will not sell an intact dog unless it is co-owned by them. Many do this to prevent their puppies from becoming breeders in a puppy mill type situation and to otherwise have some control. It is not a red flag. Refusing to take back the puppy is a huge red flag.

Contact the AKC, or whatever club the puppy is registered with.

I had two dogs die of bloat, which is why I now feed raw.

Stop free feeding him. This is partly because of his wish to dominate, and partly because you have been warned about bloat. Go too www.dogfoodanalysis.com and get him a 6 star food, or at least a 5 star.

Put his food down, leave it for a while, I'd give him an hour, then pick the dish up. Repeat a few hours later. So, offer him food in the morning, then in the afternoon, then before you go to bed. Do not give him the recommended amount because his stomach is small and he may bloat. Give him 1/2 as much. Once he starts eating normally, call him to dinner and have him sit. Set dish down, but hold your hand on his chest for a second so he stays, then tell him "at ease" or some command that is a release. This puts you in command.

[dustawaits]

This being showtime I am not likely to get in touch with her until next week.

She had me to refer my questions to our mutual friend last time I wrote her.
Our mutual friend was not at all happy about that... After all none of this is any of
her concern. I told her I would not bother her again. But the breeder....

So the pup has eaten nothing today but an ice cube. He is gagging up bile.
I took the feed up. I usually leave it down 30 min to an hour. But I do not feed after
4 pm. I have no pleasure in cleaning up his messes. So I will take them out about 4:30 a.m
, then for walk between 6:30 and 7 . Then I put down feed.

[Use Less]

He's been through a lot for a baby, really. Maybe time and gentle handling will help? I think I'd fuss about what I was feeding a dog who's been through what he has.

[dustawaits]

Use Less, I totally understand stand...what you are saying.
I start training early and really he does not want training, he
wants lots of loving and to do what he pleases. That doesn’t
work with children nor does it work with dogs.
I know there has to be a place where we can meet but he is
not making it easy. He jumped fences , so I tied him out with a rope....
He does not want to stay in all the time. He chewed the rope in two
and went roaming. I put a chain on him and he was not happy.
He got out in the road and did not know what to do with the traffic..............
See what I mean? There are reasons for rules.

[shellymay]

I believe this dog needs to go back to vet or a NEW vet....... clearly there is something health wise wrong....

[dustawaits]

shellymay, you may be right...care to give suggestions.
This is a pitiful area for dogs out of health. If I had a clue
I would take him 1 1/2 hours away.

[shellymay]

dustawaits, Two things he is a dog and he is a puppy.....a healthy puppy lives to eat...if yourpup isn't eating everyday several times a day there is something wrong....please tell us what you are feeding him..

[dustawaits]

shellymay, I believe from everything I saw from the first , that
until he arrived at the place I picked him up that he had never eaten kibble before.
I believe he was fed table scraps. Good quality table scraps but he knew far too
much about people food.
Collies as I have learned are notorious for being stubborn.
If I put just a T of broth or what ever on his food he would eat it. I was told to keep food
before him all the time....lots of wasted food.
Right now I have True Acres, Canidae Pure, and Nature’s Variety Instinct.
He flat would not eat puppy food after the 5th month. I had Purina and several other
kinds of puppy food. 😒Oogie said , rightly that enabling was feeding a cat a different food
. I have found no right way to feed this pup. I crumbled cornbread into the bowl of kibble
and actually got him to eat 6 cups over 12 hours for three days. Now again today not eating.

[shellymay]

breedsy.com/best-collie-dog-food/


pawster.com/best-collie-foods/

[Maura]

So, how is the dog?

[dustawaits]

Maura, I guess it could be said he remains the same. Since he has been this way as long as I have had him, and corresponded with the seller about it...I am going to guess, to quote someone... "something is wrong with his plumbing".
Doesn't matter what he is fed, it affects him the same. He eats , one or two days and then doesn't for one to two days. He strains like his BM is hard and does nothing. Then he poops a a gallon of soft stool.

[Maura]

I wondered if you still had him. It is sad that he will always be a problem child through no fault of yours. All I can suggest is to contact a rough collie breed club and see if someone had a suggestion for you.

[dustawaits]

Maura, if he is in pain I do not see prolonging it. I would love to talk to a DVM that really cares.
Just as the first one said giardia is no problem.... I know it is a serious problem. Particularly
the type in the state of Washington . I had a pup when I lived out there critically ill with it.
Then my friend nearly died with it...yes people get too. There again that same DVM said he doubted that...

[katievt]

Is he perhaps missing a digestive enzyme? My sister has a dog with Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency.

[dustawaits]

katievt, thank you! You have offered what very well may be a clue.
I will do more research then try to find a vet that will do something.
That may be the one two hours away.

[countrymom22]

I know this is a very old post but I'm just wondering what ever happened with this dog? Did you ever find out what his problem was?

[dustawaits]

He grew to be two years old untrustworthy. Finally had to put him on a tie. Then he made friends with mountain lion cub which would follow us on our walks. Got where I carried. One day it was just me and him on the snowy ground. I slipped and fell on my.back. He made dive for my face and I shot him.. he just was not all there..I do not miss him just thankful.he did not get my face.

[mzgarden]

dustawaits, wow, quick thinking on your part and too bad the pup never came around.

[mogal]

Sept 3, 2022 23:26:35 GMT dustawaits said:

He grew to be two years old untrustworthy. Finally had to put him on a tie. Then he made friends with mountain lion cub which would follow us on our walks. Got where I carried. One day it was just me and him on the snowy ground. I slipped and fell on my.back. He made dive for my face and I shot him.. he just was not all there..I do not miss him just thankful.he did not get my face.

So sorry for you both.  Wonder how many other dogs like him came from that breeder.

There are a lot of American Saddlebred horses around here.  One of our neighbors bought one for her teenage daughter from a local women's college that has an Equine Science program and he turned out to be a real nut job, potentially even a killer had she not been so careful with him.  The daughter was never allowed to mess with him.  She contacted the breeder who had donated him to that college to learn that the stipulation was he never be sold to a member of the public!  I think she may have even had him euthanized at that point after she had a carefully worded conversation with TPTB at that college.  We also lived next door for 10 years to a woman who bred them and her horses were nuts.  We used the same farrier and the stories he told about how difficult her horses were!  Oh, my.  I told him he deserved combat pay for all the kicking of boards and horse screams I could hear when anyone were fooling with those horses. 

I've only known one ASB that had any sense at all, a mare that belonged to a mentally challenged woman my age.  The rest of the story is that the woman's parents decided to breed the mare to another ASB so the woman would have a mount when the mare was too old.  The colt had none of his mother's good temperament, ended up euthanized when he badly injured a trainer.  We moved away and I know no more about them.  But you can rest assured, you couldn't GIVE me a saddlebred.  No, thank you. 

I owned a TW/Arab gelding for over 20 years and he was a real gem.  The vet was out one day and commented how he loved to work on nice mellow Quarter horses like mine.  I took him to task over that and he finally admitted that he could see some of the physical characteristics of both breeds in my horse.  He told me he had a lot of clients who owned Arabs they were afraid of.  The horses knew they were boss and pushed it.      

[Maura]

I have had rescue dogs that were not adoptable. Sometimes you just can't over ride genetics. Often you can work around the problem, but not always. Both physically and mentally there was a lot wrong with that pup. If you are on collie forums and if you know the name of the breeder you can warn others. Also, I am glad you never turned him over to rescue to become someone else's unsolvable problem.

[dustawaits]

He was not the pup I ordered for sure. Research proved attitude came from the site which was 40 gens registered. So what!! Kennel dog but registering is for selling. His sire's sire was the problem. One year's litters of and being around him..I commend the owner for getting permanently rid of him.

I also appreciate your kind words. I paid far too much for him. My neighbor at the time was a trainer /showman .
He could see everything wrong with that dog and was surprised I got as far as I did with him.

[mogal]

Years ago, I offered my Nubian bucks for stud service though I didn't advertise, just word of mouth through vets, etc. A young woman who was in horse science at Stephens College in Columbia MO called and we set up an appointment. I had asked about horns and she assured me her mix breed doe only had small scurs so I allowed them to come out. When the woman and her husband arrived, the doe had not little scurs but great huge horns so I withdrew my permission. The woman was not happy but no less so than I was when this big Chow Chow jumped out of the cab and charged towards the barn. When I told the pair to get their dog back into the truck, they assured me he was sweet and wouldn't hurt anything. I'm not a big fan of Chows even though we'd had a Beagle-Chow cross when I was a teenager. They finally loaded the dog, we had a pleasant conversation and they left. The next year, the woman called again, had a different doe with no horns that she wanted to breed to my buck. The doe didn't have horns so my buck had a little company and I had the stud fee in my pocket.

The rest of the story is that the husband had a roadmap of relatively fresh scars down both forearms. I couldn't resist asking what he'd tangled with. Turned out the dog had attacked him. I asked how long it took them to get rid of the dog. The response: "Oh, we still have him and we've bred a couple of litters of pups from him." I was dumbfounded and ever so glad the wife finished college and they left the area. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

So sorry you had such a sad experience, Dustawaits.

[dustawaits]

One reason commercial kennels have a bad name is because of two things. Lack of culling for bad temperament and attitude. But USDA has caused no end of problems by not allowing culling or putting a dog down. That goes for sick dogs or any other reason.
Whereas most of us would put a dog done for attacking us or our children that is not a sufficient reason. Kennel owners have to come up with very careful reasons to get rid of a dog.

[countrymom22]

Unfortunately it isn't only commercial kennels that do this. Years ago, when I was showing dogs, I was at ringside just watching the judging and overheard a conversation. Now these people were not whispering and many people over heard their conversation. They were talking about a dog in the ring who was gorgeous. Man "A" commented on the dog and Man "B" said "yes, it's our dog. We need to finish him quickly because in his line, by the time he's 2 years old he will be completely unmanageable. This line just gets crazier, so you'll never see him as a specials dog". This man had no problem admitting in public that this line had major behavior issues. This was well before the internet, so many people bought puppies from this breeder and ended up with horrible animals. But he was still showing dogs with that breeding years later.

That's when I decided to get out of showing dogs.

And I haven't owned a purebred anything since.

[mogal]

Unfortunately, bad genes can show up in any species.

The vet we used the 4 years we lived in White County AR was a University of MO graduate and since I had used it extensively when we lived north of Columbia, we got along famously, became friends rather than just having the doctor/client relationship. I remember his complaining about people who had gotten into a particular color pattern of horses. One person in particular had a stallion that might have made a dependable gelding with careful training but no one could get a hand on him safely so he bred every mare in the band.  The stallion was prepotent so all his foals were loud like him and screwy.  (LOUD should give you a clue...)  At that time, Jim had a mixed practice and was so smart and talented that he was called upon for everything including crazy horses. I checked on him a couple of months ago to see if he were still in practice. Yep but only for companion animals, thanks.

I've never shown dogs but have shown horses and goats. I've been around sheep shows as well. If the crazy animals don't put you off, all the politics and "fixes" will. I'll stop there.

[dustawaits]

Mogal you are so right.
Many years ago we talked to an old horseman. He said one stallion to 1000 was worth keeping as a stallion. I totally believed him. We gelded our stallion at 4 years old. He had many good points.

But there are far more dogs than any other type of pet. So many careless breedings.
But as you said in all species, reason mean roosters should be made soup, or traveling Tom turkeys with a fighting mood, or male ducks will a killing sadist desire. I will stop here but many more animals have come to mind.

[mogal]

I found this video on YouTube and it was pretty eye opening. The vet gets pretty emotional about some of the issues related to health among dogs that have been totally spayed or neutered.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1WFKY

She talks about responsible pet owners as those who can have intact dogs and females without having litters of puppies. We've never bred one of our females and the only litter of pups were from a stray who delivered her babies 10 days after she showed up at our house. None of our male Pyrs and only 2 of the females have been altered. We've had no accidental breedings. We had a GSD/Airedale mix that we spayed after she developed a pyometra (infected uterus but it was related to a vet who said it was safe to give her birth control shots to prevent her cycles). We had 2 Pyrs who were female littermates spayed after every other course of action didn't slow much less prevent dog/food aggression by one against her sister and the GSD we had at the time. In the end, we had to rehome the aggressive dog to an only dog household where she lived out her life just fine. She did have a cat for company. The rescue had insisted that the GSD involved be spayed as a term of adoption.

Proponents of spay/neuter list several illnesses intact dogs can develop but this vet lists a bunch more that are common in their altered counterparts. Some are just as worrisome as others.

Anyway, it's food for thought and I decided to throw it out there for consideration.