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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 20:03:45 GMT
I don't know about your climate, but here watering multiple times a day would lead to shallow rooting and root rot. We get enough rain to not always need watering, but in the dry weeks we water very deeply once or twice a week. You need a lot of organic matter in the soil to hold the water for this to work. If the water I was adding was running off, I'd use a hill and furrow layout to retain the water in the garden without drowning surface roots near the plant. If the water stood in the furrows long I'd add sand and organic matter to make a below-soil water reservoir.
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Post by gracielagata on Jun 11, 2015 21:24:33 GMT
When one looks at all of the facts involved here, one can become very confused. A lot of emphasis is placed on soil structure or tilth. No-till crowd will say that tilling destroys the natural tilth and that's correct. The no-change crowd will say changing soil texture destroys the natural tilth and that's correct. Then both say that organic matter is the only way to go and that is contrary to what they preach. Organic matter is not going to get into the soil without being put there and that involves tilling and that in turn changes the soil structure or tilth. Can't have it both ways and be a normal garden. If something is missing from a stew pot, add it. No bad soil has ever been made worse by the addition of sand. It's a natural ingredient in soil texture worldwide and more is quite often better than less. Those who are serious gardeners in heavy soil have known that the rule for improving soil structure is 15% sand and 10% organic matter. The 15% sand is either sufficient for one time or can be adjusted in the following year or years. The 10% must be repeated annually. Unless it is comprised of a very high percentage of wood, its effectiveness for maintaining tilth is gone after one season. That's why it must be replenished annually whereas the sand is permanent. This topic was covered a number of times on HT and nobody came up with a testimonial of how they turned their garden into a concrete patio by adding sand. All who added sand reported excellent results. There were times when we even discussed the proper sand to use for best effectiveness. In fact, according to some theorists who probably never turned a spade in a garden, my use of river sand is wrong but my brother-in-law said that what I had available was perfect. (From inside an oxbow so it was finer than what would be found on a sandbar.) My garden soil got better with every grain of sand added but will also admit to bringing home pure silt to lower the percentage of clay. Garden centers around here sell sandbox sand and a lot of it. Just used some yesterday making two beds for planting bottle onion seeds. Soil is 99% prairie silt with little organic matter. Worked in about ½" of that sand the depth of a garden rake. This will assure that the soil remain loose rather than cake over, just the opposite of the alleged concrete factor. In short, there's no sound reason why I may be the only person on HF with the capability of improving soil texture. Those living near flood-prone areas know that water can do that. If water can do it, no reason why the OP isn't capable of the same. Martin Thank you! You have been wonderful with all of this information for me being on the other end of the spectrum, gardening wise. I can't do anything about it this year, as it is obviously all planted, but this fall I plan to do the 15% sand, which I will be getting from the back of my parent's property. It is river sand from the Spokane River area. To that I plan to add chicken, horse or cow manure, evidently at least 10%, with some straw as well. If I get it not far from- ahem- being under the animals' rear, then till it into the garden in the fall which then sits till spring to be used; does that make it break/compost down enough to be safe and good for use in the spring? Instead of/in combination with some straw, I wanted to also see if I could find some bark fines type material to make a larger more inert organic material with the manures.
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Post by gracielagata on Jun 11, 2015 21:31:59 GMT
I don't know about your climate, but here watering multiple times a day would lead to shallow rooting and root rot. We get enough rain to not always need watering, but in the dry weeks we water very deeply once or twice a week. You need a lot of organic matter in the soil to hold the water for this to work. If the water I was adding was running off, I'd use a hill and furrow layout to retain the water in the garden without drowning surface roots near the plant. If the water stood in the furrows long I'd add sand and organic matter to make a below-soil water reservoir. I sorta forgot about worries on shallow roots.... urgh. Guess I can't change that this year, except to maybe straw up the plants a bit more to prevent excessive evaporation. This is why I want some sand in there, lol! Summertime here, we get nearly no rain, but LOTS of bright, strong sunlight. I would think there is no way we could only water 1-2x per week and not have everything die. My parents with their sand even don't seem to be able to do that. But again, I am quite unknowledgeable in all this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 22:00:56 GMT
Climate can change things, but I'd try to move that water reservoir downwards. Mulch will help retain water this year, and when you till in that mulch next year it will continue it's work lower down. Include enough sand for water to penetrate into your rich organic layer.
Note if you go overboard on wood chips and bark (heavy carbon inputs) they may absorb nitrogen from the soil for a year before they start to leach it back out. They will have a good long term effect, just won't see it right away.
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Post by gracielagata on Jun 11, 2015 22:13:18 GMT
Climate can change things, but I'd try to move that water reservoir downwards. Mulch will help retain water this year, and when you till in that mulch next year it will continue it's work lower down. Include enough sand for water to penetrate into your rich organic layer. Note if you go overboard on wood chips and bark (heavy carbon inputs) they may absorb nitrogen from the soil for a year before they start to leach it back out. They will have a good long term effect, just won't see it right away. Good to know on the wood chip/bark issue. Thanks! And building up a deep watering reservoir is definitely my plan.
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Post by bergere on Jun 12, 2015 11:49:38 GMT
Just have heavy clay here.. have been adding sand, top soil and so on, mixing well.. its doing what I need it to do.
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Post by gracielagata on Jun 12, 2015 13:25:02 GMT
Thanks for the input on experience Bergere.... I am known to frequently overthink things, as noted by this thread!
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Post by bergere on Jun 12, 2015 13:46:29 GMT
Normally, I use as little words as possible. LOL
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Post by paquebot on Jun 12, 2015 17:30:21 GMT
Normally, I use as little words as possible. LOL Whereas I often have been said to have a diarrhea of words and a constipation of thoughts. I should mention that one does not have to do as my son did and have 5 yards of river sand delivered to his driveway when changing his clay-silt garden to loam. Mine was changed 30 gallons at a time and throughout the year. (Six pails was all I could haul in the trunk of my car and river 50 miles away.) For temporary relief of surface puddling and crusting, spread it between rows or around plants and rake or hoe it in. You don't have to be scientific about the amounts but to keep adding until it's where you like it. When that point is reached, then going deeper with the trenching shovel method is next step to making it doubly nice. Martin
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Post by gracielagata on Jun 13, 2015 2:32:56 GMT
Normally, I use as little words as possible. LOL Normally, I use as little words as possible. LOL Whereas I often have been said to have a diarrhea of words and a constipation of thoughts. I should mention that one does not have to do as my son did and have 5 yards of river sand delivered to his driveway when changing his clay-silt garden to loam. Mine was changed 30 gallons at a time and throughout the year. (Six pails was all I could haul in the trunk of my car and river 50 miles away.) For temporary relief of surface puddling and crusting, spread it between rows or around plants and rake or hoe it in. You don't have to be scientific about the amounts but to keep adding until it's where you like it. When that point is reached, then going deeper with the trenching shovel method is next step to making it doubly nice. Martin Martin: Hehe. Sounds very much like my overly verbose self. I can't imagine doing just a few buckets at a time 50 miles away!! Geez! Glad my parents live 3 miles away. Oh, and that I have a truck! (Or even my Forester, that has gotta hold way more than 6 buckets... but wait, how many buckets do I have not in use currently... lol... see just as verbose! ) Now next question.... As someone else brought up: Will that extra little by little sand around the plants cause root rot?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2015 3:50:43 GMT
We never have enough buckets. I finally got a pile of little buckets and then my father comes to visit and needs big buckets to take compost home in...
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Post by paquebot on Jun 13, 2015 15:21:42 GMT
There would be no root rot due to incorporating sand a little at a time. That usually comes from conditions being too wet. That in turn comes from either poor drainage or inability for moisture to escape through the surface. With sand at or near the surface, the moisture is not locked in.
Although my sand source was 50 miles away, there were not special trips with a car just to get it. It was my home area and something always came home whenever I visited relatives. May have been woods dirt, cow manure, or sand depending upon where I went. A lot came home in the trunk of a '76 Ford LTD where I always carried 6 pails and a shovel. Next was an '86 LTD but trunk was smaller and could only handle 5 pails. Current vehicle is a 2002 Ranger Sport and I can haul 18 pails. With that, I have made special trips but to improve community garden plots since my home gardens no longer need any.
Martin
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Post by gracielagata on Jun 14, 2015 19:07:23 GMT
We never have enough buckets. I finally got a pile of little buckets and then my father comes to visit and needs big buckets to take compost home in... Yes, I hear you on buckets. We have the same problem with them making the rounds visiting through a few different houses. I don't care as long as I have at least one. Though over the winter, I had to keep many on hand as I had to use them to haul water to the horses until we fixed the spigot. I thought it was way easier to haul than run water out of the 200 feet of hose to prevent freezing. There would be no root rot due to incorporating sand a little at a time. That usually comes from conditions being too wet. That in turn comes from either poor drainage or inability for moisture to escape through the surface. With sand at or near the surface, the moisture is not locked in. Although my sand source was 50 miles away, there were not special trips with a car just to get it. It was my home area and something always came home whenever I visited relatives. May have been woods dirt, cow manure, or sand depending upon where I went. A lot came home in the trunk of a '76 Ford LTD where I always carried 6 pails and a shovel. Next was an '86 LTD but trunk was smaller and could only handle 5 pails. Current vehicle is a 2002 Ranger Sport and I can haul 18 pails. With that, I have made special trips but to improve community garden plots since my home gardens no longer need any. Martin Glad you had to make no special trips. Isn't that funny how you learn the space limits of a vehicle in not normal measurements? I know I can fit 8 ft t-posts in my forester, as long as I have no passengers. haven't determined a limit on how many yet, as I didn't need many at a time, lol. I think I have maxed my weight capacity getting chicken feed multiple times! And thank you for clarifying on why little bits of sand at a time won't hurt.
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