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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 8, 2015 18:27:15 GMT
Imagine you built a life for you and your family then the day comes that your parents, who raised you on farmland, pass away and you gratefully inherit the land to continue to protect, keep in the family, and pass down to your children for the next generation. Now imagine that while you have resumed farming the crops for your family and protecting your land, you begin getting stalked by a pipeline company declaring they want to use it to pump crude oil. You and your family decide it is not in your or the lands best interest to take part in the business offer no matter the price tag. The big pipeline company doesn’t like the answer so to counter your “no thank you,” they take you to court to sue you for your rightfully owned land to use it in ways they see profitable for them. This is exactly what is happening to a North Dakota farming family who is being pursued by North Dakota Pipeline Co. LLC (aka:a subsidary of Enbridge) to use their farmland for pipeline needed to run crude oil to refineries on Lake Superior, allowing the product to be sold on the world market. When the family stated, multiple times, they were not interested in the deal the large pipeline company went into pursuit to sue the farmland owner for rights to the land. North Dakota farmer, James Botsford, and his family are being told that they basically have no right to deny the North Dakota Pipeline Co. use of their land. Mr. Botsford suggested the company just go around his property to which they responded they were Enbridge, “…and they don’t go around anything – they go through it.” www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/farmer-sued-by-oil-company-who-destroyed-his-familys-land/This is the same Enbridge that already has over 50,000 miles of pipeline within North America and is currently planning a massive expansion within the Great Lakes Basin. It is also worth noting this is the same company that is responsible for the largest inland oil spill in our nation’s history from 2010, allowing the spill to go on for nearly an entire day (before finally making the decision to turn off the valve); dumping about 20,000 barrels (in other terms up to 843,000 gallons) of oil into Michigan’s Kalamazoo River. The landowner, James Botsford testified in court in August, to answer questions regarding his land but when telling of his concern regarding the company's history due to their over 800 spills and leaks within the U.S. from 1999 to 2010, the judge refused to allow this fact to be used; meaning no future jury will ever be able to reflect on that piece of knowledge. Additionally, Botsford stated that land they are leasing out for soybean farming has been trampled beyond use because of the company searching for a possible leak in an old pipeline in a neighboring plot of land, also owned by Enbridge. This parcel of land is owned by Botsford but is currently being leased to another farmer. Enbrigde has yet to find the leak so the land is being destroyed by the oil spill and the farmer’s crop has been destroyed by the company attempting to find their fault within someone else’s property. Despite all the evidence and in spite of it being THEIR PROPERTY, to do with as they think is best for the land, the court ruled against them and in favor of the oil company!!! It appears that this will likely be appealed to the North Dakota Supreme Court.... one can only hope that common sense isn't for sale to the highest bidder.
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Post by spacecase0 on Sept 8, 2015 18:41:14 GMT
I have read enough news to know that if someone offers you enough money to move to another farm, you take the deal. then you move far away from any pipeline, freeways, or whatever
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Post by Ken on Sept 8, 2015 19:03:52 GMT
I have read enough news to know that if someone offers you enough money to move to another farm, you take the deal. then you move far away from any pipeline, freeways, or whatever I agree. If you don't take the deal when it's ripe, the deal will tend to turn sour by the end. Having your land trampled beyond use and an oil leak on neighboring land sounds like your land will become pretty worthless soon too. I hope they get it overturned in the ND Supreme Court and if they do I also hope the land is worthwhile after getting it back.
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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 8, 2015 22:49:35 GMT
You do know that Enbridge is primarily a Canadian owned company? www.enbridge.com/InvestorRelations/StockInformation/Ownership.aspxNice neighbors huh? This is NOT a NICE COMPANY to have to do business with. What's even more alarming, is this is the same company that may NOW want to run heavy crude throught their aging pipelines via the straits of Mackinaw - some of the most pristine waters not only in Michigan, but the rest of the world. Line 5 which are two parallel lines currently operating there now, are 15 years OLDER (62 years) than the one that ruptured in 2010, spilling nearly a million gallons of crude oil into the Kalamazoo River and which they STILL haven't totally cleaned up!!! Heavy crude oil is considered particularly problematic because it makes traditional petroleum spill cleanup methods less effective, as the oil sinks to the bottom in clumps and adheres with sediments and other materials. The 850,000-gallon oil spill on Enbridge's Line 6B pipeline near Marshall in July 2010 was diluted bitumen, or dilbit, a heavy oil product that prompted a more than 4-year, $1 billion cleanup. www.oilandwaterdontmix.org/www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/07/15/task-force-makes-recommendations-line-pipeline-straits-mackinac/30152787/Mike Shriberg, regional executive director of the National Wildlife Federation's Great Lakes Regional Center, called on state officials to act with urgency on the task force's recommendations. "Delay only further jeopardizes our environment and economy," he said. "It's time to stop playing Russian roulette with the Great Lakes." Line 5 was built in 1953; a 645-mile, 30-inch-diameter pipeline running from Superior, Wis., eastward across the Upper Peninsula. The line splits into two, 20-inch-diameter, parallel pipelines underwater through the 4.6 miles across the bottom of the Straits of Mackinac. The pipeline then continues south through the Lower Peninsula, where it crosses the St. Clair River into Sarnia, Ontario. A University of Michigan study commissioned last year by the National Wildlife Federation found the Straits would be the "worst possible place" for a Great Lakes oil spill, contaminating waters and shoreline in both Lakes Michigan and Huron through the waterway's often shifting currents.
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Post by tab on Sept 9, 2015 0:20:52 GMT
Things like this make me heartsick. Having had a brush with a windmill company and their dirty ( eye opening) tactics, my heart goes out to these people. No, I don't they will win.
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Post by ohiodreamer on Sept 9, 2015 15:26:50 GMT
I don't believer there is anything such as land ownership anymore in the US. We have become a country "run by the numbers"....if a company can prove the numbers....they can have what they want...period (and numbers can easily be adjusted to prove anything). Unless little Joe Schmo can create as much profit for the local government with his little piece of land as the big company can, he has no say in what happens. We are just caretakers....the government owns it all.
How do you prepare for this.....take pictures with your. Make memories. That they can't take away from you....yet.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 19:20:59 GMT
Can't have it both ways so get those old lines updated and build more along side. Rail is surely not the best way, cost and safety. Nor is trucking. Shortening the distance to refineries also, less distance and cost, use close to home.
Me, I would hope anyone needing my property would pay at least going price. I have to pay for it but only because that is part of the cost of living where I want to. I don't think anyone really owns land, it is a part of the cost of living, buy, pay taxes or rent and move at any whim. I don't feel I really own it anyway. I use it and try to keep it better than when I found it. I use and give of it's abundance. I guess that is part of why my places are very small, built cheap, almost temporary. I can leave and not worry much, "things" don't mean much to me, they are used to make life easier. I feel guilty sometimes, life has been too easy, almost....James
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Post by whisperwindkat on Sept 10, 2015 12:02:07 GMT
I have read enough news to know that if someone offers you enough money to move to another farm, you take the deal. then you move far away from any pipeline, freeways, or whatever This. I feel for this family and pray that something changes and that they win. But even if they do, the company will keep on doing what it is doing to someone else. These are small wins and they don't damage these large companies like they should. I don't know what the answer is though.
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 10, 2015 14:58:59 GMT
Not to take up for the big bad oil co ,but I just got to call bull to some of it . Out Co.way I saw roads and lots of things the oil co's built for land owners better than they ever had before . Most pipeline co pay big bucks and leave the land in good shape when they leave too.In very few years you never know they were there and if used wisely the land owner still has cash in hand .
Or you can use your few acres and try to defy what the court will call progress for the many and have your peeing contest . Then they may just leave the ground in less than stellar condition when they depart
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Post by Maura on Sept 10, 2015 16:01:31 GMT
In hindsight, they should have hired a lawyer early on. When the offer became too good to be true, they should have taken the deal, as written in an above post. When dealing with criminals, you have to understand that you will always loose. Everyone has a price and if you don’t’, bad things will happen to you. Legally, “eminent domain” will win out. You can stall it, but not stop it.
The only way to lessen the power of oil companies is to find alternative methods of powering our cars, or giving them up completely. We aren’t going to give them up, so we need to come up with something else. While this means that electric companies will become more powerful, electric companies are less destructive in the long run.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 17:27:45 GMT
Nothing is free. Electrical companies are as bad or worse, just that the transmission there of is not as messy....James
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Post by Bear Foot Farm on Sept 10, 2015 18:22:42 GMT
If you use petroleum products you have to accept the fact that infrastructure is needed.
If they rerouted the pipelines to suit everyone, no one would be able to afford a gallon of fuel.
Most of these pipelines are buried, and have no effect on the land once they are completed.
If you want the comfort and convenience of modern life, you have to pay the costs
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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 10, 2015 18:36:25 GMT
Nothing is free. Electrical companies are as bad or worse, just that the transmission there of is not as messy....James How soon they (hope for us to) forget. Getting that 'transmission' takes fuel of some sort. In many places, that translates to burning coal. The fuel produces both energy and by-products of waste. Let's call that waste: "fly ash"..... and it has to be stored someplace until we can figure out what to do with it. Sometimes....okay ....many times, 'accidents' happen while these massive piles of ash sit around waiting.... the end results aren't pretty. www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/02/06/coal-ash-is-spilling-into-north-carolinas-river-heres-why-its-so-hard-to-regulate/www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/22/coal-ash-spill/4143995/www.scientificamerican.com/article/tennessee-coal-ash-spill/And don't even get me started on my local electrical company.....it's been an undeclared 'war' for the past 18 yrs since I moved back to begin building my dream home. The will supply power to the people, but apparently on their own time and terms; took OVER 6 months, just for me to get them to even come out to tell me where I could place my power pole, and that was ONLY after contacting the State's Ombudsman via the Public Utility Commission who got on their case. Since then, they've trespassed across my property, leaving gates/fences open or cut, thereby letting my goats get out, hired sub-contractors to spray poisons to kill the vegetation that my animals eat, deliberately run down 8-10 yr old pine plantings with their all-track equipment and then disavowed ANY responsibility because it wasn't THEIR own employees, but the sub-contractors they'd hired. Had a rental property in which a sub-contractor putting in a sewer line, mistook the marked area where the gas line (also owned by this same utility) was plainly marked and then cut into it. The utility company came out and as required by law (which their lobbistists got passed), notified the owner by placing small green neon cards on both the front and rear door handles of the vacant property, that the gas was shut-off and to contact them to relight the various water heaters, stoves and furnaces when we were ready. Unfortunately, while they also had MY HOME PHONE NUMBER, they didn't have to let me know this most efficient way, and because this happened in the middle of winter, went undiscovered by me for approximately a week to 10 days and I happened to be driving by and noticing the frozen waterfall running down the exterior of the building!!! Needless to say, the place was ruined because the furnace was off, the pipes froze and the water pump, kept on pumping.... no one took ANY responsibility for the damage; neither the sub-contractor, the insurance companies, nor the utility company and we ended up having to tear the building down at our own expense. And the battle continues to this day. I ended up in jail for 17+ hrs and several thousand of dollars poorer via legal fees, earlier this year, because I caught an employee of this same utility company, coming out of my parent's garage at 1:30 in the morning and was falsely accused of assaulting said employee.....only wish now that I had....except she was of the female gender and I don't hit ladies....of course, since she lied, she's no lady. Did I happen to mention, that there was no valid reason for her to be there either; other than potential thievery, since there is no electrical or gas lines into this buiding?!!! Nice racket if you can get it. And because of this 'incident', I'm now labeled as a "dangerous customer" and the meter readers will no longer come out to ANY of the properties owned by the XXXXXXX family either. Consequently, I now have to read my own meter and either call it in or send it via email to them. Which is fine by me. The less interaction I have with them the better. My dearest wish is that I could one day afford to go off-grid and then have nothing to do with them further. They are a boil on the backside of this state.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 18:47:55 GMT
I went off grid to leave a smaller footprint but nothing is free, even as minimal as I am....James
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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 10, 2015 18:55:01 GMT
If you use petroleum products you have to accept the fact that infrastructure is needed. If they rerouted the pipelines to suit everyone, no one would be able to afford a gallon of fuel. Most of these pipelines are buried, and have no effect on the land once they are completed. If you want the comfort and convenience of modern life, you have to pay the costs Which sounds reasonable on its' face; unfortunately those are just nice platitudes when looked at in the cold light of reality. The infrastructure is needed.....granted. But who keeps track on maintaining it? Who sets the 'safeguards' in place and then checks to make sure that they are done correctly and in the timeframe needed to keep EVERYONE safe and happy? If the answer is: Why, the company who owns them.....then we the people who depend on those products that run through them as well as those who have those failing pipelines ruining their land and livelihood because those same companies have had their lobbyists busy in the various state capitols, making sure that they don't have to do much of anything as far as minimizing anything other than what they have to pay out in restitution. Your absolutely correct..... WE END UP PAYING ALL THE COSTS ....
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Post by countrymom22 on Sept 11, 2015 0:33:38 GMT
We have a similar situation here, but it involves the gas company. They are planning to put in a new pipe line to handle natural gas. It is slated to go right through the middle of a historic area of farms. Most of these farmers have already sold the development rights to their property to make sure that they stay farms forever. This pipeline will not be servicing the areas through which it will go. It will not bring down the price of natural gas for the customers. It is going to have to cross the Delaware River as well.
No one in this area wants this pipeline to go through. There is some proof (which I haven't personally seen) that these pipelines cause farm land and animals to not perform as well as they would elsewhere. Many of these places have been in the same family for generations. People are fighting this but I fear they really don't stand a chance. This country is no longer for the free, unless you have money. Big money talks. Period. And because most of the politicians are in someone's pocket, this will eventually get passed.
We also have a small airport owned by the same family for 3 generations. The township has decided that they want the land around the airport, about 400 hundred acres. They are afraid that at some time in the future, the owners will decide they want to expand the airport, and the residents don't want that to happen. This airport predates any of the houses around it. The people pushing this are ones that have moved in relatively recently and have tried to change everything about this area. All these people knew about the airport before they moved in. This has been going through the courts for years. It now looks like the airport owners may win, if you can call spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees to protect something that someone else had no right to try and take from you, winning. It has come to light that they majority of the residents in that township feel the powers that be have overstepped their positions, and they may now be required to pay some restitution. I hope they are taken to the cleaners for what they have cost this family, not just financially, but emotionally.
Emminent Domain is a bad word as far as I am concerned. Offering to buy something that isn't for sale and being told no should be enough. If it is expensive to re-route the pipeline, that should be considered the cost of doing business. Just my thoughts.
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Post by manygoatsnmore on Sept 11, 2015 1:02:45 GMT
I just watched a news segment today about a family ranch next to Area 51. The folks have had the land (about 500 acres, I think I heard) in the family for 130 years, and are facing the decision to take a $5M offer split between 20 people, or fighting it to keep their land and possibly ending up forfeiting their land to eminent domain.
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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 11, 2015 2:37:07 GMT
According to this article, it's 400 acres surrounded by gooberment land, on which there is/was an active lead and silver mine that has been profitable in the past, until the Air Force decided to drive them off their land. First by either bombing an ore processor, strafing various building on the property and also doing illegal stops and searches with machine guns pointed at family members or friends visiting and trying to access their own land. They even tried to dissuade prospective investors by harassment and threatening them. The property in question has been in the family for 126 years and the Air Force has given them an ultimatum to either accept their final offer of $5.2 million (which expires today at midnight) or face eventual eviction when they are forced off the property due to eminent domain being used. www.activistpost.com/2015/09/family-near-area-51-fights-back.htmlIronically, the Air Force's spokesperson, claims that they've been good neighbors to the ranchers, but having been the test subjects of unwanted radiation from being downwind from several nuclear bomb testing, doesn't seem very neighborly to me....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2015 5:44:32 GMT
My opinion:
The state Supreme Court will most likely uphold the lower court's decision.
Let's face it: This is the America that we live in. It has been this way for 20 years, and has only gotten worse in the past 10 to 12 years. If Corporate America wants your land, they are going to get it, and the courts are upholding it.
What was the lake or riverfront in Ohio, where the local government took homeowner's land, so one of their big money cronies could build a waterfront mall and retail location? The homeowner's fought the city council and every court up to the Supreme Court, and still lost.
I don't like it one bit, and it is getting out of hand. Even small local governments are in on it, and it boils down to nothing but giving the rich what they want, when they want it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2015 22:36:41 GMT
This is so sad and disheartening. What is the point of struggling to save and acquire that piece of Earth if there is no hope? If a corporation (be it oil company/electric company/whatever) can just come along and decide they want it and they will win? Why do you all do it? It seems too much work to invest in a piece of land to make it profitable or self-sustainable, if everyone here believes they should pack up and sell it if a corporation wants it, only to restart it elsewhere where the same cycle could repeat. Surely there is some hope and things that can be done to avoid such a situation in our own lives...
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 23, 2015 1:43:23 GMT
This is so sad and disheartening. What is the point of struggling to save and acquire that piece of Earth if there is no hope? If a corporation (be it oil company/electric company/whatever) can just come along and decide they want it and they will win? Why do you all do it? It seems too much work to invest in a piece of land to make it profitable or self-sustainable, if everyone here believes they should pack up and sell it if a corporation wants it, only to restart it elsewhere where the same cycle could repeat. Surely there is some hope and things that can be done to avoid such a situation in our own lives... Pick you a place with horrid cellphone reception ,usually those places the world has done passed them by
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 20:03:40 GMT
This is so sad and disheartening. What is the point of struggling to save and acquire that piece of Earth if there is no hope? If a corporation (be it oil company/electric company/whatever) can just come along and decide they want it and they will win? Why do you all do it? It seems too much work to invest in a piece of land to make it profitable or self-sustainable, if everyone here believes they should pack up and sell it if a corporation wants it, only to restart it elsewhere where the same cycle could repeat. Surely there is some hope and things that can be done to avoid such a situation in our own lives... Pick you a place with horrid cellphone reception ,usually those places the world has done passed them by Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how do you use the phone in a place like that? Or do you live phoneless?
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 24, 2015 18:52:55 GMT
Pick you a place with horrid cellphone reception ,usually those places the world has done passed them by Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how do you use the phone in a place like that? Or do you live phoneless? Had a long response but lost it . We have DSL threw AT&T .Cell phone here works some what but there are dead spots . We use Magic Jack for house phone .Have no cellphone and don't want the bill either . It appears many can't drive without one, some may not spoke to their wife all day till they start the car and start driving . I hope I never see the day I need constant contact to the point I can't go to the store for bread without a darn phone ringing .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 4:06:19 GMT
Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how do you use the phone in a place like that? Or do you live phoneless? Had a long response but lost it . We have DSL threw AT&T .Cell phone here works some what but there are dead spots . We use Magic Jack for house phone .Have no cellphone and don't want the bill either . It appears many can't drive without one, some may not spoke to their wife all day till they start the car and start driving . I hope I never see the day I need constant contact to the point I can't go to the store for bread without a darn phone ringing . No worries, thank you for taking the time to post this The only issue I can see with that is having my kid(s) not be able to reach me in case of an emergency if they hit a dead spot.
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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 25, 2015 4:15:59 GMT
Update and further information on that Enbridge pipeline across the straits of Mackinaw. www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2015/09/bill_would_ban_great_lakes_cru.html?ath=c58c2a6a8c809b9aad60e3927185c8b8#cmpid=nsltr_strybuttonA bill is being proposed that would ban Great Lakes crude oil shipping, while boosting federal pipeline scrutiny. The Pipeline Improvement and Preventing Spills Act — "a top-to-bottom review of hazardous pipelines in the region" — was introduced Sept. 23 in the U.S. Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee. The bill would assess the current status of oil spill response and cleanup plans, require ice cover be considered in worst-case scenario planning, and increase availability of pipeline safety data to the public and state regulators. It would also mandate federal studies on risk to the Great Lakes posed by pipelines like the controversial Enbridge Line 5 under the Straits of Mackinac, where the U.S. Coast Guard is leading a full-scale oil spill exercise this week. Top Coast Guard officials testified that "we know very little about how to clean up an oil spill in freshwater." Certain saltwater response techniques used in the BP Deepwater Horizon disaster cleanup don't apply to freshwater. This week's spill drill is being led by the U.S. Coast Guard out of Sault Ste. Marie. Major simulations will take place Thursday, Sept. 24. The Coast Guard plans to evaluate Enbridge and its response contractors' ability to address shoreline cleanup, open water oil recovery and wildlife rehabilitation practices. The bill would also expand the federal Pipeline Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) criteria for "high consequence" areas and put the Great Lakes under that new umbrella.
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 25, 2015 19:11:20 GMT
Had a long response but lost it . We have DSL threw AT&T .Cell phone here works some what but there are dead spots . We use Magic Jack for house phone .Have no cellphone and don't want the bill either . It appears many can't drive without one, some may not spoke to their wife all day till they start the car and start driving . I hope I never see the day I need constant contact to the point I can't go to the store for bread without a darn phone ringing . No worries, thank you for taking the time to post this The only issue I can see with that is having my kid(s) not be able to reach me in case of an emergency if they hit a dead spot. Well when I grew up we had hand crank phones and not many disasters went unreported . One place near here texts work but to make calls they have to go out on the front porch . Many other places the dead spots are a mile or two then work again. Now days if one is really paranoid just install a GPS tracker in the car ,like the Buy here Pay hear car lots do . Or a simpler way is call from a good spot (you get to know them) say Mom \Dad i'm on my way to so and so . Here you learn to adapt . I worked in the Rockies for a while places there one would be just as well using smoke signals .But people adapt .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 7:20:46 GMT
No worries, thank you for taking the time to post this The only issue I can see with that is having my kid(s) not be able to reach me in case of an emergency if they hit a dead spot. Well when I grew up we had hand crank phones and not many disasters went unreported . One place near here texts work but to make calls they have to go out on the front porch . Many other places the dead spots are a mile or two then work again. Now days if one is really paranoid just install a GPS tracker in the car ,like the Buy here Pay hear car lots do . Or a simpler way is call from a good spot (you get to know them) say Mom \Dad i'm on my way to so and so . Here you learn to adapt . I worked in the Rockies for a while places there one would be just as well using smoke signals .But people adapt . Ah I see, I didn't know how that all worked. Thanks for clarifying.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 10:01:50 GMT
Had a long response but lost it . We have DSL threw AT&T .Cell phone here works some what but there are dead spots . We use Magic Jack for house phone .Have no cellphone and don't want the bill either . It appears many can't drive without one, some may not spoke to their wife all day till they start the car and start driving . I hope I never see the day I need constant contact to the point I can't go to the store for bread without a darn phone ringing . No worries, thank you for taking the time to post this The only issue I can see with that is having my kid(s) not be able to reach me in case of an emergency if they hit a dead spot. I hear that a lot from people who insist that their kids, even 7 and 8 year olds, need a cell phone. "What if there is an emergency?" I grew up with out a cell phone, I survived. I didn't have constant contact with everyone and I had no major catastrophes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 12:30:01 GMT
This is so sad and disheartening. What is the point of struggling to save and acquire that piece of Earth if there is no hope? If a corporation (be it oil company/electric company/whatever) can just come along and decide they want it and they will win? Why do you all do it? It seems too much work to invest in a piece of land to make it profitable or self-sustainable, if everyone here believes they should pack up and sell it if a corporation wants it, only to restart it elsewhere where the same cycle could repeat. Surely there is some hope and things that can be done to avoid such a situation in our own lives... Pick you a place with horrid cellphone reception ,usually those places the world has done passed them by Exactly, SMJ. We live in the boonies, and while the electric cooperative can get back here (and be a bit of a PITA, but not awful) no one really wants this hilly, rocky oak-hickory-elm forest. Sure, reception is poor, but there are radios and other means of communication.
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