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Post by mollymckee on Sept 14, 2016 22:38:49 GMT
The government is now planning to kill 45000 of the about 50000 wild horses that the BLM is supposed to be overseeing. The current idea is to simply sell them to kill buyers or just kill them. They have had 20 years to keep the numbers in check.
Im not sure how I feel, but this is too over the top. If they had done their job well the horses wouldn't be a problem. People love to see the horses running wild. Cattle prices are low, cattle people don't trust the BLM, and most of the land the horses are on is pretty poor. Finding lessors might be pretty hard. Some of the older horses that haven't been adopted after capture have not been well cared for and this needs to change but wholesale killing? I think it's wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 23:07:07 GMT
We have the same thing with our Kaimanawa Horses (feral), mollymckee. Each year there's a muster to keep the numbers down and people are given the opportunity to adopt them. It's such a shame to see them killed - as you say people love to see horses running wild. Beautiful creatures. |
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Post by countrymom22 on Sept 14, 2016 23:59:45 GMT
I just saw something online that said the plan to kill them has been dropped due to the reaction to the news.
I know that feeding and caring for them is expensive, but killing them isn't the answer. They say not enough people are adopting them, but not everyone is equipped to handle/train a wild animal. I guess they didn't think about that when they started rounding them up.
They say part of the problem is that birth control for the horses wears off after less than 2 years.
They might want to geld the stallions caught and return them to the wild to live out their days. At least they won't be breeding. I'm sure spaying the mares is really not an option both because it would be invasive and expensive, but if feeding and housing these animals is so expensive, then an expensive, permanent solution might still be coming out ahead of the game.
Not sure what the answer is, but it's not killing them all. At least not for me.
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Post by mollymckee on Sept 15, 2016 1:55:31 GMT
We certainly spend millions of dollars on dumber things than supporting the horses. Some of them were turned out when the remount shut down, so part of the problem the government caused. I don't know what they thought when they turned the remount stallions they couldn't sell out with the wild horses. Maybe the holding facilities could be improved and the prison training programs expanded. Training the horses does make them easier to sell.
Our son bought one when he stopped at the holding area near his work. He bought a three year old gelding that had been in the holding pens for several months for 25.00, on sale. He is very attached to our son. From the beginning it seemed he knew he was in a better place. When he got cut and needed sutures two weeks after DS got him, the vet had a hard time believing Maverick had only been there two weeks and was born in the wild. It was an impulse buy that has worked well. I will say DS has ridden since he could walk, Iives in the country and has other horses. He, his wife and kids all ride and were happy to put the time in to make a good horse.
I hadn't seen that the BLM decided not to kill the horses. I hope a good answer can be found, that will protect the horses and let us see them in the wild. I certainly don't want to see them killed.
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Post by here to stay on Sept 15, 2016 1:59:01 GMT
When you can buy a register horse so cheaply or even get them free, it is hard to find a home for a horse that needs a pretty experienced trainer to get them to a point of being easily handled. Of the half dozen or so I've known, only one was really well trained.
I don't know the answer but spending life in a pen with so many other horses doesn't seem that great either. The idea of slaughtering so many is very ugly.
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 15, 2016 3:03:23 GMT
I am going to activively seek to adopt one, get it trained, find it a great lifetime home, then adopt another one and do the same thing. Then again, and then again. I have the ground and the experience, I might as well help in whatever way I can. It just makes my blood boil when I read they are just going to kill them all, if they had managed them correctly it wouldn't be this way. The BLM has been rounding them up to cater to ranchers who want them gone, or they are rounding them up off public ground to keep them out of national park lands. With no plan of what they would do after they round them up. Brilliant. Genius. And the horses die.
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Post by mollymckee on Sept 15, 2016 3:25:56 GMT
I'd love to do that aoconnor. I wish DH could be convinced it was a good idea. Some of the horses out of the Burns Or pens are really nice. They used to get Keiger mustangs but I haven't seen any recently. |
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Post by wildhorseluvr on Sept 15, 2016 6:08:47 GMT
I am going to activively seek to adopt one, get it trained, find it a great lifetime home, then adopt another one and do the same thing. Then again, and then again. I have the ground and the experience, I might as well help in whatever way I can. It just makes my blood boil when I read they are just going to kill them all, if they had managed them correctly it wouldn't be this way. The BLM has been rounding them up to cater to ranchers who want them gone, or they are rounding them up off public ground to keep them out of national park lands. With no plan of what they would do after they round them up. Brilliant. Genius. And the horses die. I hope you can do that. As you can see by my screen name, I love the wild horses and used to spend quite of bit of time watching them out in the Burns area. We were once able to spend an entire afternoon watching the famous stallion Mesteno and his herd of (18?) mares....one of the best memories I have of time spent with my DH. (Wish I knew how to post pictures.) We had nine Kigers, and my last horse, now in his twenties, is a good looking mustang from the Warm Springs herd (also Burns area). We adopted him when he was less than a year old. Many of the Mustangs are nice looking animals (some are incredibly beautiful) and some are pretty good sized. They have good feet on them. Some are difficult to handle at first but many make fantastic riding animals. One of the Kiger mares we adopted is one of my all time favorite horses. She used to stick her head in the door in the evenings to visit with us. She'd guard our property like a watch dog, coming to warn us we had strangers approaching and then actively confronting the strangers at our gate. She became "big sister" to 6 weanlings, and taught them (by herself) to load in the stock trailer (all at the same time, mashed in like sardines in a can). If I was late feeding on a weekend morning, she'd go get her feed tub, bring it to the house and shake it at me. One of the best and most loyal animals I've ever owned. On a rare occasion or two a stallion has literally walked up within a few yards of us. Here in our own mountains, we've had small groups of curious young stallions follow us for most of a day while we went trail riding, and returning to the truck & trailer with us. It makes me incredibly sad to think of these animals being slaughtered. |
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Post by here to stay on Sept 15, 2016 15:36:28 GMT
I wonder if there was a national program for competition using adopted mustangs that it would offer an incetive for adooting them. People do so like to show off their animals.
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Post by spacecase0 on Sept 15, 2016 22:22:57 GMT
I looked into what the government is doing in this area a while ago,
seems to me that the government caught the wild horses,
then later complain that they can't afford to feed them and need to kill them now...
so why don't they just set them free again ?
why did they catch them in the first place ?
it seems like totally pointless intervention that was a horrible idea in the first place
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Post by Maura on Sept 16, 2016 0:18:59 GMT
This is what they did with feral donkeys in the Appalechian mountains. They would catch the jack and geld him. Great, after a while he didn't care about breeding and another jack would step in and do the job. Finally, they decided to catch the stud and give him a vasectomy. He was shooting blanks but didn't know it. Because he thought he was the boss of the harem he continued to run other jacks off and continued to do his duty. The birth rate plummeted as only the young jacks sneaky enough to breed a jennet under the boss's nose were creating foals.
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Post by paquebot on Sept 16, 2016 0:50:33 GMT
When this started back in the 1970s, several of my cousins adopted wild horses. There was a big demand for them and I believe that there were even waiting lists. Captured horses didn't remain in corrals very long unless non-adoptable for one reason or another. Problem over the years is that the demand for them isn't there like it was but nobody informed the horses which just kept producing more. Just like any other grazing animal, eventually their population will surpass the ability of the land to support them. Maybe doesn't seem fair but it's a fact.
Martin
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 16, 2016 17:36:29 GMT
I wonder if there was a national program for competition using adopted mustangs that it would offer an incetive for adooting them. People do so like to show off their animals. Yes, yearly, it is called the "Mustang Challenge". Trainers get wild mustangs and have 3 days to get them under saddle. |
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Post by here to stay on Sept 17, 2016 3:36:36 GMT
I wonder if there was a national program for competition using adopted mustangs that it would offer an incetive for adooting them. People do so like to show off their animals. Yes, yearly, it is called the "Mustang Challenge". Trainers get wild mustangs and have 3 days to get them under saddle. I was thinking trained mustangs that compete like breed shows with big purses only focusing on mustang virtues like soundness and heartiness. The money would attract competitors and allow a venue. Maybe create an old west mustang costume class for authentic calvary, native american, rancherf cowboy, etc. A big three event where a hirse has to cut, pack, drive-or something like that. |
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Post by copperkid3 on Sept 17, 2016 14:03:54 GMT
I looked into what the government is doing in this area a while ago, seems to me that the government caught the wild horses, then later complain that they can't afford to feed them and need to kill them now... so why don't they just set them free again ? why did they catch them in the first place ? it seems like totally pointless intervention that was a horrible idea in the first place Like almost every program started and 'managed' by the feds, it goes to crap rather quickly and then someone comes up with the bright idea of how to end it. Gives one pause to think that when everything collapses from the coming bust, what the plans are for the multitude of humans on the various welfare programs  It certainly costs a LOT MORE to feed and house them than wild mustangs. Maybe they'll just turn them loose into the wild to run free again... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2016 15:41:06 GMT
As usual, there are 2 sides to the story. There are 45,000 wild horses and burros being held by the BLM after roundup. These are getting harder to adopt out, especially the old ones. This is besides the 67,000 still in the wild. 67,000 are 3 times what the experts say is sustainable on these lands. When we started working with the BLM in the 70's, there were less than 1/4 this amount on 1/3 less acres. The population has boomed. These numbers are destroying the habitat from overgrazing. Also the BLM is not wanting to use the land for cattle, more to stir the pot. The committee that made the vote, not the BLM, even says they did it to sensationalize the problem in the hope of getting more money. The wild horses are multiplying by 1/4 every year, or more. 28% last year. This country has an abundance of horses right now so the adoption program is not working. Something has to be done....James www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2016/09/16/the-government-is-not-going-to-kill-45000-wild-horses-not-yet-anyway/ |
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Post by paquebot on Sept 19, 2016 4:53:59 GMT
If all of those against managing the horse and burro populations knew anything about farming, the excess would not only be killed but turned into food or feed. If someone has 50 acres of pasture and puts 25 horses on it, may be OK at first. Then the mares begin dropping foals and there's 50 horses in a couple years. All of those will be skinny and everyone will be screaming at the owner for trying to keep so many horses in such a small area. Same applies for any other domestic animal be it sheep, goats, hogs, cattle, or whatever. Why should who owns them matter? The situation is still the same regardless. And in this case, the animals are not even native.
Martin
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Post by indypartridge on Sept 19, 2016 11:05:40 GMT
If all of those against managing the horse and burro populations knew anything about farming, the excess would not only be killed but turned into food or feed. Agree. We have a huge overpopulation of horses in this country. A big part of the problem is that 'animal lovers' managed to get the slaughterhouses closed, so there is no outlet for excess. Organizations that do horse rescue are maxed-out, local animal auctions frequently can't find buyers at any price, and in some rural areas, horses are being dumped, just as people do with unwanted dogs & cats. |
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Post by here to stay on Sept 19, 2016 15:16:43 GMT
If all of those against managing the horse and burro populations knew anything about farming, the excess would not only be killed but turned into food or feed. Agree. We have a huge overpopulation of horses in this country. A big part of the problem is that 'animal lovers' managed to get the slaughterhouses closed, so there is no outlet for excess. Organizations that do horse rescue are maxed-out, local animal auctions frequently can't find buyers at any price, and in some rural areas, horses are being dumped, just as people do with unwanted dogs & cats. The same can be said for dogs but few recommend mass slaughter of dogs. Although, according to various welfare societies, millions are killed in shelters each year. But still the idea of "rescuing" a shelter dog from death has an idealized place in culture. What is missing in this idea of mass slaughter is that horses are not considered farm animals anymore. They rarely act as real necessities now. They are pets. They are pets who do not attack people in cities, like feral dogs do. All they do is overgraze lands far, far away. So the same ideal applies to them as it does with dogs but without the imperative of danger that wild dogs have to motivate their official destruction. |
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 19, 2016 15:58:31 GMT
I will jump into the slaughter issue.
I take in many horses that are abused, neglected, or have catastrophic injuries that someone wouldn't care for and the animals wound up in a shelter somewhere. So, here is my take on the slaughter stuff. I think it has it's place to end the suffering of thousands of horses yearly. But the WAY they kill these animals is absolutely, horrifically, inhumane. Watch a youtube video of it being done, you will never look at horse slaughter the same again. Horse are very sensitive animals, they are prey animals, and they are fear driven. The worst thing that can happen to an old or sick or injured horse is to be dumped off at an auction, get moved to another auction because they didn't sell, and then to another, until a kill buyer finally pays next to nothing for the horses and they move them to a lot with feeders and round bales in them to fatten the horses up so they seem for top dollar at the slaughter plant. The animals are generally in bad shape by the time a kill buyer gets their hands on them. Since they are in bad shape, some of them get the crap beat out of them by the stronger horses trying to get to the hay bales to eat. It causes even more stress, there is a lot of sickness and injuries that occur, and by the time they are shipped over the border they might just as well be dead anyways.
In the US, it was mandatory that the horses at least were in decent physical shape, not injured or ill, and not pregnant. But the killing was the same horrific thing here as it is in Mexico, and thats what the protesters were pitching fits about so much. Now it's only in Mexico, unregulated, and it's worse because the EU pulled their sanctioning of the slaughter houses because they were taking injured, ill, very elderly, and pregnant horses and killing them. They drop them down a chute headfirst into blades. The horses are not unconscious, they are not numbed, they are wide awake and don't always die fast. It is horrific, and as inhumane as can be. Even babies get slaughtered, it just isn't ok with me.
So my point in all that is this...if they could humanely put them down, ok, I understand the over population is serious and the horse market is getting ready to crash hard again and the pens will be full of horses waiting to be shipped over the border. But if we would simply do something in this country humanely, there wouldn't be the outcry and PETA stuff going on, it would calm down and be ok. There has to be change though, or I will never support slaughter in this country, or anywhere for that matter.
I do not understand someone who has a horse that needs to be put down due to age or infirmity, not putting them down but sticking them in some auction so they don't have to do the deed themselves. I would rather put my horses down, even young and healthy if I had to, rather than subject them to the horrors and torture they would endure in a slaughter plant.
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 19, 2016 16:00:10 GMT
If all of those against managing the horse and burro populations knew anything about farming, the excess would not only be killed but turned into food or feed. Agree. We have a huge overpopulation of horses in this country. A big part of the problem is that 'animal lovers' managed to get the slaughterhouses closed, so there is no outlet for excess. Organizations that do horse rescue are maxed-out, local animal auctions frequently can't find buyers at any price, and in some rural areas, horses are being dumped, just as people do with unwanted dogs & cats. The reason the outcry was so great in this country was the manner in which they were slaughtering the horses. It is incredibly inhumane. If that would have been addressed and changed, I don't think any of the plants in the US would have been closed. |
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 19, 2016 16:01:51 GMT
I am going to activively seek to adopt one, get it trained, find it a great lifetime home, then adopt another one and do the same thing. Then again, and then again. I have the ground and the experience, I might as well help in whatever way I can. It just makes my blood boil when I read they are just going to kill them all, if they had managed them correctly it wouldn't be this way. The BLM has been rounding them up to cater to ranchers who want them gone, or they are rounding them up off public ground to keep them out of national park lands. With no plan of what they would do after they round them up. Brilliant. Genius. And the horses die. I hope you can do that. As you can see by my screen name, I love the wild horses and used to spend quite of bit of time watching them out in the Burns area. We were once able to spend an entire afternoon watching the famous stallion Mesteno and his herd of (18?) mares....one of the best memories I have of time spent with my DH. (Wish I knew how to post pictures.) We had nine Kigers, and my last horse, now in his twenties, is a good looking mustang from the Warm Springs herd (also Burns area). We adopted him when he was less than a year old. Many of the Mustangs are nice looking animals (some are incredibly beautiful) and some are pretty good sized. They have good feet on them. Some are difficult to handle at first but many make fantastic riding animals. One of the Kiger mares we adopted is one of my all time favorite horses. She used to stick her head in the door in the evenings to visit with us. She'd guard our property like a watch dog, coming to warn us we had strangers approaching and then actively confronting the strangers at our gate. She became "big sister" to 6 weanlings, and taught them (by herself) to load in the stock trailer (all at the same time, mashed in like sardines in a can). If I was late feeding on a weekend morning, she'd go get her feed tub, bring it to the house and shake it at me. One of the best and most loyal animals I've ever owned. On a rare occasion or two a stallion has literally walked up within a few yards of us. Here in our own mountains, we've had small groups of curious young stallions follow us for most of a day while we went trail riding, and returning to the truck & trailer with us. It makes me incredibly sad to think of these animals being slaughtered. "I have one gelding currently that was wild caught. I would like to go to Oklahoma soon and pick up another. They have a holding facility in southern OK that I pass when I go up to visit some friends of mine. I purposefully leave my horse trailer home on those trips!" |
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Post by Wendy on Sept 20, 2016 1:20:12 GMT
While I am not crazy to think of slaughtering that many, over grazing & dying from starvation or sickness from not enough to eat is even more cruel. I haven't seen how they are killed & probably don't want to. Why can't they put them down humanely with a bullet in the head? I am sure they would make good dog food or cat food so the meat wouldn't be a total waste.
Horses are hobby animals & most people can't afford to own them. The feed & care they need is costly. I wouldn't adopt a wild mustang when there are plenty of tame horses to be found. Around here people were turning them loose. It's a shame, but they can't let them keep running free if the habitat can't support them all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 14:42:42 GMT
The same equipment is used in the U.S. as in cattle slaughter. As is said in this video, do it here and we can control the process. I had been in the 2 slaughterhouses that were on the west Coast, this is how it was done. Slaughter is never a pretty thing but most homesteaders have it done or do it. Horses are livestock. If you want them for pets fine, some people have cattle for pets too, one right here on this site, no problem there. Anyone that eats meat has slaughtered or caused an animal to be slaughtered. The horses need to go through the process to be adopted, done quickly and cheaply so that anyone that wants the horse can adopt, if not, sent to slaughter. Like anything the .gov does the process is slowed down and becomes way too burdensome and expensive. No reason the sale (adoption) can't be done by video. People can check them out in person before the day. Animal rights people have caused the problem themselves, taken away the options. Have rules and follow them....James www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ8h1r_qv5c |
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Post by here to stay on Sept 20, 2016 15:24:05 GMT
The same equipment is used in the U.S. as in cattle slaughter. As is said in this video, do it here and we can control the process. I had been in the 2 slaughterhouses that were on the west Coast, this is how it was done. Slaughter is never a pretty thing but most homesteaders have it done or do it. Horses are livestock. If you want them for pets fine, some people have cattle for pets too, one right here on this site, no problem there. Anyone that eats meat has slaughtered or caused an animal to be slaughtered. The horses need to go through the process to be adopted, done quickly and cheaply so that anyone that wants the horse can adopt, if not, sent to slaughter. Like anything the .gov does the process is slowed down and becomes way too burdensome and expensive. No reason the sale (adoption) can't be done by video. People can check them out in person before the day. Animal rights people have caused the problem themselves, taken away the options. Have rules and follow them....James www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ8h1r_qv5cIt's not the actual killing that was so bad. It's that horses are different than cattle. Such things as they kick each other viciously when too crowded, they stand on long legs so they fall more easily in trucks when being hauled and get trampled, they are more flighty and more easily stressed than cattle and fall prey to that with horrible gut issues, they donxt vomit so any bad or even change of feed can rupture a gut, etc. Even when pampered in transit with the best of attention, horses come down with respiratory illness and colic. And they certainly donxt get the best of care on the way to a slaughter house. |
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Post by Woodpecker on Sept 20, 2016 20:24:46 GMT
I personally am sickened by how they slaughter the horses. Like Wendy mentions, a bullet in the head would do the dirty deed, at least humanely. It makes me very sad.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 22:22:12 GMT
All the more reason to slaughter anywhere livestock is butchered and inspected and the quicker the better. Horses are hauled everyday. Did you watch the video, horses are shot with the air bolt, same as a bullet except reusable, over and over....James
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Post by mollymckee on Sept 20, 2016 23:23:22 GMT
It is a many sided problem. The government has made it worse with their mismanagement from the begining. Turning the remount horses loose was their answer to the too many horses in the late 40's or early 50's. Then they have held them in pens as they pulled them off the range when they had an over population and they wanted the range for other things. They really didn't look for much in the way of re-homing until way too late. Now there are too many horses of most kinds and getting someone to buy a wild horse when they can get a trained one for little or nothing in most areas is a very hard sell.
Not only are there plenty of horses but the families wanting a horse or horses is falling. Both parents work, kids have so many activities, lots of families are moving back into the cities rather than moving out to the suburbs, horses are expensive to own. When I was a kid we lived in the country and lots of kids had a horse. Even when our kids were in 4H, there were a lot of kids in the horse projects, and others had horses as well. Now, with both parents working, fighting the traffic to the suburbs or farther is really a problem. Unless a parent rides, horses are not likely to be a part of a girls life. Ranchers use ATV's, planes and helicopters and don't need many horses any longer.
I think that culling the horses with poor conformation or other problems should have been done all along. To do it now, and ship to Mexico or Canada doesn't seem right. If slaughterhouses are so bad (and they are) we don't allow them in our country, adding a long and horrible truck ride isn't right. I have seen that the BLM is backing down on killing horses, at least while people are watching. I guess we will have to keep watching.
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Post by paquebot on Sept 21, 2016 0:46:11 GMT
Might be good to read some facts about horse slaughtering. Interesting that Canada and Poland are just ahead of Italy and tied for 9th place for horse meat production. Some other interesting facts, too. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughterMartin |
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Post by here to stay on Sept 21, 2016 1:31:38 GMT
I've seen who came to haul horses away for slaughter in the "good ol' days." I've seen auction yards where the killers buy. I've seen horses too injured to walk more than a few feet dragged into trailers. The good old days of horse slaughter were pretty bad. And that was when there were places all over for doing it. Of course the ones killed at a place 2 hours away are certainly better off than the ones shipped live who are days on boats.
it could be done much more humanely than it used to be. But costs money and frankly won't be done. It would cost more than the ill, injured horses can produce in meat.
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