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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2015 1:08:02 GMT
My husband and I are wanting to invest in a sustainable lifestyle for ourselves down the road. We are currently in the information gathering and planning phase. We learned of the benefits of multi-species rotational grazing, and are wanting to delve into that when we source our land. I understand how soon to rotate depends on the type and quality of grass we'll have on the land and such. But I was wondering if there are any resources out there that lay out in which order to rotate, why and how. I have been keeping notes on various aspects of rotation grazing for a while, and I gathered from a book (Joel Salatin's "Folks this ain't normal" I think) that it should go goats, then cows with pigs (since they can eat different things), then chickens. But according to www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TkEYx8aRbA they suggest cows then chickens then pigs. We want to do goats, cows, pigs and chickens. Is there a proven way to rotate these four species that works better than the alternative(s)? I also gathered that the general ratio is 1-2 goats for every cow but don't have information on ratios one for chickens or pigs to cows. Due to the fly cycle it was also suggested the chickens be moved 3-4 days behind the cow by Joel Salatin. Is there a rule for the other animals regarding how frequently or infrequently they would be moved ahead of, or behind cows? We haven't decided on a set amount of goats, pigs or chickens. We have decided on 1 or 2 cow to start with. So we want to figure out where the other three species would numerically fit into the ideal multi-species rotational grazing equation.
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Post by Bear Foot Farm on Aug 7, 2015 1:58:14 GMT
I'd rotate the cows and goats through the pastures, keep the pigs mainly in one area of their own, and let the chickens free range anywhere they want.
I think you will find the pigs will do too much damage to the ground, and you can't easily confine the birds in an open pasture
The pigs will kill the chickens and eat any eggs they can find, and if they root up the ground you won't get any regrowth for the next rotation.
Pasture will only support a certain number of animals, even if they have different eating habits.
The pasture sections will need 4-6 weeks of regrowth just rotating one or two species
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Post by whisperwindkat on Aug 7, 2015 10:45:22 GMT
I'd rotate the cows and goats through the pastures, keep the pigs mainly in one area of their own, and let the chickens free range anywhere they want. I think you will find the pigs will do too much damage to the ground, and you can't easily confine the birds in an open pasture The pigs will kill the chickens and eat any eggs they can find, and if they root up the ground you won't get any regrowth for the next rotation. Pasture will only support a certain number of animals, even if they have different eating habits. The pasture sections will need 4-6 weeks of regrowth just rotating one or two species This! Pigs will definitely root and tear up a pasture. I only put them into a pasture that needs some refurbishing and I don't plan on putting anything else in there for a year. Cows and goats can go in at the same time provided they get along because the goats are browsers and the cows are grazers. As long as the goats have something to browse, they will rarely graze. Like has been said chickens are hard to confine in a pasture setting, but allowed to free range they will do their job.
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Post by Maura on Aug 7, 2015 16:42:18 GMT
Yea, pigs are good to break up the soil. I wouldn’t put the chicken coop in with the pigs, but let the chickens free range in the pig area if they want to. You also put goats in an area you want cleared of bushes, yes, they will climb small trees.
You can put horses, cows, sheep, and goats together. With so few animals, it might work better for you if the different herds were all together. They will each form their own herd, but be part of one large herd. They will move together, eat together. In fact, herd animals feel more secure in a group and your lone cow will always be hugging the fence trying to be with the goats.
I would start with chickens and goats. Three goats would be ideal to test your fencing with. If you can keep the goats in, you are doing good. Train the goats to come to a whistle and to wait politely while you adjust the fence for grazing. Train at least one of them to a halter so that you can lead the one goat and the others will follow. Never turn your back on a ram or billy.
Also, nice photo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 18:46:28 GMT
Thanks for the info! Does rotational grazing work for pigs at all? Joel salatin discusses it in www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7BgtCqcEP0 Perhaps did he do that because it was only pigs so that was okay to rotate versus doing it with other species like want to? I mean if you have land at the point where you want it to be and are not looking for the pigs to help you seed/break up the soil and such. Would using chicken tractors help with the containment issue?
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Post by Bear Foot Farm on Aug 10, 2015 4:58:10 GMT
If you had lots of land in relation to the number of animals, you could conceivably rotate the pigs, but the sections would need longer rest periods between grazings if they did a lot of rooting around.
Tractors for the chickens need to be fairly small unless you have the mechanized equipment to move them, and they add to the labor needed whereas free ranging involves very little labor at all.
One compromise I've seen some use is to build fairly large coops on trailers that can be moved to different pastures. Chickens will rarely go more than 100 yards from their coops, and it gives you a place for the feed and water as well as nest boxes so you don't have to hunt for the eggs.
Another consideration is each section will have to have it's own water troughs, or you will have to allow them access to a centrally located watering areas.
That can be done easily with a little planning and strategic gate locations. I arranged all my pastures so I could open or close sections but the animals still had access to the same barn and water.
Sit down with a pencil and paper and draw out your perimeters and buildings, then try different lay-outs to see what works best for you
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Post by Wendy on Aug 10, 2015 11:10:13 GMT
Just remember in running animals together that they have different mineral requirements. You can run sheep & goats together, but sheep can't have goat or cow minerals. Goats & cows can eat the same minerals though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 22:28:46 GMT
If you had lots of land in relation to the number of animals, you could conceivably rotate the pigs, but the sections would need longer rest periods between grazings if they did a lot of rooting around. Tractors for the chickens need to be fairly small unless you have the mechanized equipment to move them, and they add to the labor needed whereas free ranging involves very little labor at all. One compromise I've seen some use is to build fairly large coops on trailers that can be moved to different pastures. Chickens will rarely go more than 100 yards from their coops, and it gives you a place for the feed and water as well as nest boxes so you don't have to hunt for the eggs. Another consideration is each section will have to have it's own water troughs, or you will have to allow them access to a centrally located watering areas. That can be done easily with a little planning and strategic gate locations. I arranged all my pastures so I could open or close sections but the animals still had access to the same barn and water. Sit down with a pencil and paper and draw out your perimeters and buildings, then try different lay-outs to see what works best for you That makes sense. We have seen rotational grazing done as a football field with gates that open onto the next one where shelter and water are moved to each paddock. We have also seen the pizza slice formation where the pasture is divided into pizza slices so to speak and there is centrally located water and shelter that is accessible from each pasture. Just remember in running animals together that they have different mineral requirements. You can run sheep & goats together, but sheep can't have goat or cow minerals. Goats & cows can eat the same minerals though. I didn't know that, thanks!
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Post by Awnry Abe on Aug 13, 2015 2:46:46 GMT
Pigs aren't going to tear things up if your rotations are quick (<5 days, e.g.). I've had one pig in with my dairy goats all summer and he has only made a little pig-sized mud hole next to my waterer. Everywhere else is fine. 1 pig doesn't qualify as "pigs", but I have friends that do and their pastures are fine.
I think 'that* you rotate is more important than the order. Make sure you consider the well-being of the grass over the animal. (Which will make for a healthier animal) Over time, you will figure out what is working for you. There isn't one solid solution. Every piece of land and paddock setup in its own climate has its own nuance that will make up your mind for you in many cases. My personal preference stems from the animal group which gives me the most challenge--and currently the most rewards--which is beef. They lead the rotation because I am usually most concerned about keeping their food source plentiful and fresh. By giving them dibs I tend to avoid over-grazing, which is a big no-no. I run the yearling heifers behind them. Sheep lag. I rotate the dairy cows separate in 3 smaller dairy-only paddocks. The dairy goats get their own 7 acre paddock that I have cross-fenced with step-in posts. I don't rotate my chickens, but intend to when I retire. I would have them follow directly behind the beef in a hay-wagon mounted chicken coop.
What Wendy stated regarding the minerals is true, but knowing why can help you manage some of the complexities. The chief "culprit" mineral that is found in higher amounts in goat/cow mineral is copper. But copper isn't poisonous to sheep to the point that they would drop dead if they ate some. Sheep need copper, too. So do humans. But all animals have different toxicity build-up and assimilation to all minerals. For copper, the toxicity threshold is higher for cows/goats than sheep, so feeding them cow mineral daily will cut their life short several years. But if you move your animals but keep the mineral feeders behind and their is some cow mineral left over, don't feel like you need to break out the sheep hazmat suit to remove it. The other big mineral no-no with multi-species grazing is high sodium mineral and pigs. Many cheap farm-store loose minerals are high in sodium. I'd keep a closer eye on that one than I would the copper/sheep combo. Minerals are a challenge in multi-species homing, but absolutely essential. You just can't simply not give them mineral.
I wish you the best. You will be challenged, but it can be rewarding and fun.
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Post by Maura on Aug 13, 2015 17:50:40 GMT
As to how far chickens will roam from the roost, it depends on how far they have to roam to forage. They eat insects in the grass, bug you can’t even see. As the numbers of these insects (including ticks and fleas) drop, the chickens will roam further. One year our first snow was a big snowstorm and I found a couple of chickens quite far from the homestead. One was in a tree, the other under a pine tree. The snow was so deep that DH and I had to carry them back home. Orpingtons are large, need two hands, but we did it. Just things to consider.
If you don’t have too many animals you should do alright as you are learning. Start with fewer, you can always add more.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 19:11:06 GMT
Pigs aren't going to tear things up if your rotations are quick (<5 days, e.g.). I've had one pig in with my dairy goats all summer and he has only made a little pig-sized mud hole next to my waterer. Everywhere else is fine. 1 pig doesn't qualify as "pigs", but I have friends that do and their pastures are fine. I think 'that* you rotate is more important than the order. Make sure you consider the well-being of the grass over the animal. (Which will make for a healthier animal) Over time, you will figure out what is working for you. There isn't one solid solution. Every piece of land and paddock setup in its own climate has its own nuance that will make up your mind for you in many cases. My personal preference stems from the animal group which gives me the most challenge--and currently the most rewards--which is beef. They lead the rotation because I am usually most concerned about keeping their food source plentiful and fresh. By giving them dibs I tend to avoid over-grazing, which is a big no-no. I run the yearling heifers behind them. Sheep lag. I rotate the dairy cows separate in 3 smaller dairy-only paddocks. The dairy goats get their own 7 acre paddock that I have cross-fenced with step-in posts. I don't rotate my chickens, but intend to when I retire. I would have them follow directly behind the beef in a hay-wagon mounted chicken coop. What Wendy stated regarding the minerals is true, but knowing why can help you manage some of the complexities. The chief "culprit" mineral that is found in higher amounts in goat/cow mineral is copper. But copper isn't poisonous to sheep to the point that they would drop dead if they ate some. Sheep need copper, too. So do humans. But all animals have different toxicity build-up and assimilation to all minerals. For copper, the toxicity threshold is higher for cows/goats than sheep, so feeding them cow mineral daily will cut their life short several years. But if you move your animals but keep the mineral feeders behind and their is some cow mineral left over, don't feel like you need to break out the sheep hazmat suit to remove it. The other big mineral no-no with multi-species grazing is high sodium mineral and pigs. Many cheap farm-store loose minerals are high in sodium. I'd keep a closer eye on that one than I would the copper/sheep combo. Minerals are a challenge in multi-species homing, but absolutely essential. You just can't simply not give them mineral. I wish you the best. You will be challenged, but it can be rewarding and fun. Yes we are definitely able and willing to rotate the pigs faster, even every day just like we've learned is the best for cows. Around 4 pm when it's closing in on night is the best to rotate cows everyday we've heard. The information about minerals is interesting. I've read of various things that various people think to supplement. We were hoping and wanting to just let them get what they need from nature. I know not finishing with grain can make them come to ideal butcher weight much later, but we were hoping to go the full nature route. For instance feedings the pigs, hard-boiled eggs from the chickens we feel is still natural. But to add any grain supplement or mineral in this case, wouldn't be something we were looking to do. But supplementing with hay in the winter or to finish (to give the beef an even taste year round) again we feel is natural since that's what cows eat anyways just in a different form. As to how far chickens will roam from the roost, it depends on how far they have to roam to forage. They eat insects in the grass, bug you can’t even see. As the numbers of these insects (including ticks and fleas) drop, the chickens will roam further. One year our first snow was a big snowstorm and I found a couple of chickens quite far from the homestead. One was in a tree, the other under a pine tree. The snow was so deep that DH and I had to carry them back home. Orpingtons are large, need two hands, but we did it. Just things to consider. If you don’t have too many animals you should do alright as you are learning. Start with fewer, you can always add more. Starting with a few and not outpacing our learning curve is definitely important. The bugs in the grass needed for the chicken would be dependent on how many cow were there before them as well right? Joel Salatin numbers his animals by land versus each other. So he does 85 cows on 1/4 acre and then 125 chickens every 1/4 acre, so in essence for his pasture it's 125 birds to every 85 cows when rotated every day. Would 125 chickens find enough to eat if they came in after 85 cows and this cause them not to roam then? It was my understanding there were also bugs to eat from the cow manure left behind for the birds, which is why I ask this.
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Post by Maura on Aug 13, 2015 21:22:36 GMT
Flies lay their eggs in manure, so if you wait a day, there will lots of nice things for chickens in the manure. Animals to land and chickens to follow is also dependent upon the land, not just the numbers. You can move your cows every day, but how much area are you giving them? This is not only dependent on the fertility of the soil, but also water, temperature, hours of daylight (time of year). Your pasture should have a variety of plants, grasses and forbes. Some plants shoot up as soon as the snow melts, others take longer. They go to seed at different times, also. Once a grass goes to seed your cows and goats won’t eat it because the nutrition in the plant drops- it’s propagated and is done. You find that you can leave your animals on 1/4 acre longer at one time of year than in another.
Supplementing also depends on what is in the soil. Have your soil tested. You may not need to supplement with one mineral, but may need another. Cattle, swine, chickens, goats. These are not native animals, and they will not be foraging a new spot every day, roaming far and wide. They are stuck in one place and you have to bring in what they need whether it be copper or selenium or iron. But, as I wrote, have your soil tested so you can get what you need. You can probably find an elevator that will make a special mix for you.
Basically, with one or two cows and a few goats, you don’t have to be Joel Salatin to rotate wisely. Just look at what’s going on, move the fence. Salatin has a more sophisticated system than you need. Your chickens will root around and quickly learn that manure = lunch. As long as they have the freedom to explore any area, they will go back and forth from fresh manure to older manure and scratch it up. As said, they will roam as far away from the coop as they need to. Just make sure they are behind electric netting at night. If they won’t roam as far as the farthest paddock, put the little coop on skids and move it. When chickens roam they aren’t like Labrador Retrievers. They aren’t playing games, they are eating. Bearfoot Farm stated they will not go more than 100 yards from the coop. They shouldn’t have to forage that far. 300 feet is quite a distance for a little chicken. They will scratch and hunt looking for food. If nothing is chasing them, they will stay within that area. How far away are the cows going to be? You could actually consider having one coop nearer your house and one coop nearer the farthest paddock.
On another subject. Sheep and goats were, and still are, rotated after cows because of the way they eat. Cows wrap their tongue around the grass, then bite off. They leave quite a bit. Sheep and goats cut right at the ground. Sheep can follow cows, but cows can’t follow sheep. This is not a problem with low numbers.
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Post by whisperwindkat on Aug 14, 2015 11:32:00 GMT
Rotational grazing of any species depends on pasture management, condition, soil health and where you are. Joel is in Virginia, which has a much higher stocking rate (# of animals per acre) than say someone in Colorado or Texas. You can pasture and rotate any animal as long as you understand the habits of that species and its needs. Also, there are differences within the species. I had 3 pigs one year that didn't hardly root at all. They made a nice little mudhole in one spot and then rooted just enough to improve the soil wherever they went. A couple years later, I had 3 little pigs that tore up everything to the point that it took years to recover and time and effort filling in their monstrous caverns that they dug. When those pigs were done with an area it looked like a war zone and it didn't take them long to do it. So the first pigs were great and really improved my soil in many areas, but the second pigs were awful and much more time consuming and destructive.
Like Maura said what and how you supplement will depend on what you already have nutrition wise. If your land is poor then your grazing will be poor and you will need to make that up some way some how. When I first started here 14 years ago, it was poor grazing at best and in many places no grazing. The land had been over fertilized with chemicals and compacted with too many animals heavy animals and no rotation whatsoever. I divided everything into 4 pastures and a dry lot, mowed, composted, mowed, overseeded, composted, tested, mowed, overseeded, tested, composted, etc. etc. until after so many years most of my animals are fat as ticks and healthy as can be on nothing but grazing 8 months out of the year. During that time the only ones getting any grain are the ones in production or growing out for the freezer.
Salatin's methods are great for heavy production, which is what a working commercial farm needs. However, a small residential homestead doesn't need to be as intensive. Especially in labor. Salatin has numerous interns that work for him and can manage the labor intensive methods that he employs. However, many times the reality is that one person does the majority of the farm work while the other one does the majority of work off the farm. If that farm work is massively labor intensive it gets old real quick and I have seen many people burn out trying to copy joel salatin. It is sad watching them invest so much time and money only to give it all up and sell everything in just a couple years. There is much to be gleaned from Salatin, but the difference in situations needs to be understood so that the information can be adjusted for the homesteader that doesn't have 10 interns to move livestock every 4 hours. Personally, if I had to spend my day doing nothing but moving livestock and moving fences then I would sell everything too or lose my mind. Everything around here has to be as efficient as possible when it comes to time because that is my most precious and limited commodity.
Here is how I rotate....I have 4 pastures and a dry lot. In the summer the horse and goats spend a week in a pasture. That gives each pasture a 3 week rest period. During the spring when everything is most wet and the ground most vulnerable to being compacted then they spend about 2-3 weeks in the dry lot only with hay. Then we start our rotation. In the fall, 2 pastures will be mowed and fertilized with compost and sprayed with copper. The other two will be mowed, and overseeded with a winter pasture mix and sprayed with copper. The first two pastures are pulled out of use. The second two are used for half a day for 2 weeks at a time. The rest of the day the animals spend in the dry lot or the barn. I turn everyone out as soon as I get up and then when I get the morning chores done outside then everyone is pulled in from pasture. Stalls are already set up for evening so the children just have to open the doors and let everyone in. The dry lot opens into the barns. Hope all this makes sense. Blessings, Kat
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2015 20:35:10 GMT
Maura thanks for sharing the specificity of sheep after cow, that is exactly the type of information I was looking for!
Kat thank you for sharing your rotational grazing setup, that was very valuable insight.
We will definitely do a soil test as one of the first things when we find a piece of land. I felt while that dictated what to supplement, I thought there would be a general norm as for one always coming after another. I didn't realize different animals in the same species would have different personalities and thus eat differently which could throw a wrench in the norm.
The reason why Salatin's name comes up so often with new farmers is because he is one of the only successful farmers out there willing to inform and guide new farmers on the ins and outs of farming. Joel goes into great detail and covers minutia in his books. But one of his strongest pieces of advice is also not to get in too deep and to absolutely stay away from debt. I feel people who see him and get dollar signs in their eyes and invest too much (especially money they don't have) and suffer burn out can't be blamed on Salatin, since he repeatedly warns against that. Salatin to me, has also always made it clear and insisted that it's different in different part of the US and each piece of land is unique in how a farm operates. So I'm not trying to copy him by any means. In my three year quest for knowledge the sources offering the most information to total newbs like me has been Joel, HT forums and now this one. It's hard to figure out the line between "go out and do it and that's how you'll learn" and "make sure you know at least these basics before you even think of starting a farm".
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