Can't feel the babies- BABIES ARE HERE!

[barefootfarmer]

I have a thread going about my pregnant doe who is having trouble and not standing here homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/thread/5424/pregnant-goat-stand?page=1&scrollTo=88272


Yesterday I could feel her kid(s) moving a lot. Today no matter how I moved her and tried to get movement from the kids, I couldn't do it. She's still eating, drinking, shifting her body around-still not standing. She had just the slightest bit of amber tinged discharge from her vaginal area. You'd almost miss it if you weren't looking closely. 

Her pins ligaments are extremely loose and I can pinch my fingers around her tail head. 

In your opinion, is it more likely that she's getting ready to kid- so no movement from the kids, or 
the kids might be deceased?

[Deleted]

Have they moved up? Did she show wide in the belly but not so much now?

....James

[barefootfarmer]

About a week before she went down, her babies dropped from up high, to down pretty low and she looked hollowed out along her spine. But thinking I had until late March I didn't think much about it. So @redfish, I'd say her belly definitely dropped, even though I can't see it right now.

I know I sound like such an ignorant goat keeper. I'm really quite good with dairy cows. I wish that applied here.

Heading out to check her now. I'll post any updates.

[mary]

Two things that are giveaways of impending kidding with my goats are the udder and the tail. Not only are the ligaments loose, as some of my goats will have loose ligaments for what seems like way longer than they should, but the tail is held at a funny angle, looking almost broken like and slightly to the side. I'll see if I can find a picture of what I'm talking about to post. I know I have some.
And most times, but not always, the bag really fills in full and tight the day of kidding.

[mary]

This is a day of picture of my one goat that has kidded this year. Not a really good angle to tell what I am talking about, but if you look closely at her tail it is somewhat to the side and bent in a funny way. I'll have to look further to find a better picture, but this is the one sure day-of sign for mine.

[mzgarden]

barefootfarmer, I don't have advice but your comment, "I know I sound like such an ignorant goat keeper. I'm really quite good with dairy cows. I wish that applied here." struck a chord with me.

You don't sound ignorant, you sound worried and frustrated and like a goat keeper that cares.
You may not know what to do (I wish I could help), but the fact that you're asking and trying and concerned is what's important. I sometimes second guess coming and asking questions too - but at the end of the day -- it's about taking care of our animals and I respect the approach.

Keep us posted and I'm hoping this turns out well.

[shellymay]

I sure thought I replied to this earlier?? maybe I forgot to hit create post?? Keep giving her the calcium as she might be 
a lot closer then you think, possibly the babies are moving into the birthing position and that is why your not seeing much movement now?

Assuming you have a glove if no babies in about two days, ME I would glove up and do a check see and if nothing presented right there
within finger reach I would pull fingers out and smell the glove (for rot) if something has happened to those kids within two days or so you should be able
to smell rot, If no rot then babies may still be alive and just fine, I know it all sounds gross but it can bring hope and lessen the fear....
can't say it enough about doing all you can to bring her calcium levels up and for that momma to get up and moving around! keep up the good
work and we still have very high hopes for your girl 

[barefootfarmer]

Just got back in from checking her. I gave her some goat drench earlier and when I checked for movement from the kids, I did feel some! Not as active as yesterday, and they seem to be in a different position- but definitely movement!

Other than that,she's staying the same. Called the vet and she said just to keep watching and waiting. She emphasized keeping her calorie intake high. That's also part of the reason for the goat drench.

I'm reading all the suggestions that you are all giving me. If I forget to reply back, sorry- but I do appreciate any tips and anecdotes. It's nice to not feel quite so "alone".

I'm working the calcium end, shellymay, because that's what I'm really thinking she needs right now. Just a hunch. Alfalfa and her CMPK drench.
Thanks!

[shellymay]

barefootfarmer, Your doing great, might check her temp again and keep track of that, I am still curious

 about her pasture time and if it is know to have deer in it often, or if she has been in a dry lot eating hay

for some time way before she went down? Still curious as to this hoof blowout and its condition (improving

or not)? She attempted the other to get up on her knees if I remember right? and it was a day or two from

the time you gave the banamine, so if my memory holds true have you given her a second dose? Just wondering

if or what improvement may come with another dose?

Three main reasons for going down like this and I would hate to miss something important, first meningeal worm

second calcium deficient, third pinched nerve from kids....

I have seen at least one case in each of these situations above in my sheep, first let me say that the hoof blowout

shouldn't stop her from walking around on her knees, animals with the worst feet ever will get around with a limp

or walking on knees, so if the banamine helped some it might of helped the pinch nerve problem not the foot??

Pinched nerve case we had, the ewe lagged way behind all the time and acted like the back hip on one side was just

to stiff to move, it would take her 1/2 hour to get 50ft, but she was up not down, we kept an eye on her and when

it got close to a real due date we penned her up and made sure she got her share of feed and all, when her milk bags

showed signs of being ready (big/full/nipples large and ready) at that point we induced labor and of course this can

take many hours for the shot to work UGH!!! Well it got late into the night and we need to get some sleep so we left

her penned up, next morning there she was with twins and nice size babies and the ewe was 100% back to herself

NO more pinched nerve

Calcium case, like everyone said she gave birth to trips and they had robbed her of all her calcium, she needed no

help with the delivery of all three but went down and stayed down after lambs were born, it was our first experience

with this and I didn't know any better and we put the ewe down and I bottle raised the lambs, now I know what to

watch for and can prevent it from the get go, and or else how to cure if it comes up again, But this is common across

many farms until people experience it and learn how to avoid it....

Meningeal worm, Yes my sheep graze really big pastures and deer are common here and will jump my fences and graze

in pastures as well, we now run the Great Pyrenees in with sheep and own 6 of these dogs and they do a darn good job

of keeping deer out but they are still not a 100% guarantee that deer don't pass through and we did have a ewe catch

the worm and she was preggo, she went down and couldn't stand no longer, we did the worming with the correct wormer

 and daily for 5-7 days, she improved and was finally able to get up and stagger around (falling down about every 20-30 ft)

again she was penned when the time was close enough (she staggered around with the flock for about a month) and then

the weather got real bad and she couldn't hold her balance on ice or slick wet mudd and was having troubles competing

and getting her share at the round bales of hay. Penning up had to be done at that time, and I was sure the lambs would

be dead because how could she fall so much and not kill the babies, (but she never got sick from infection because of dead

lambs inside her) so I had to believe that they were alive, she did have twins and tried her best to nurse but she would get

all tangled up with her limited body mobility and would fall down, I didn't want her to land and kill the babies so I bottle

raised and we put the ewe down, see the thing is you can't completely cure the damage this worm does to the spinal area

or brain function. She was always going to have this issue and I could not keep and raise her as a separate sheep with special

needs. But we do have a member on here that did have one and does keep hers separate but I can't remember all the details

or if she did or not put her ewe down?

Anyhow I am sure there are more reasons for a preggo goat going down but at this time you are sure that kids ARE very much

alive so infection do to dead kids isn't the case here, I have no experience with the zinc issue so I am in the dark there, she is

eating and drinking so that is a good sign, Next time you check on her you might grab and feel her udder and make sure it all seems

normal (not rock hard or real red and hot) just to rule out blue bag!

Still praying here for a great turn out with your girl, sorry for rambling on! 

[barefootfarmer]

shellymay, She's been on dry lot since September. We have no deer on the farm at all, livestock dogs keep them away. (and her dry lot area is actually next to my green house and fenced in with field fencing and hot wire. Before the fire she was on pasture, but again- with a livestock dog and not likely for deer).I initially trimmed up her hooves and my friend came over and finished it off. She packed her hooves with salve and as for if it's getting better- it's just been two days, so I'm not sure how to judge that. It isn't getting worse. Her feet don't feel warm to me. No odor, ever. She's had her second dose of banamine. The vet only gave two syringes. I see where you're going with the pinched nerve. I wondered about that too, then forgot about it. She seems alert, perky, she shifts herself around much more than she did at the start. I hung a hay feeder in her hut that's filled with alfalfa. I give her handfuls every couple of hours. I was hoping that she'd be motivated to reach up for it and that might get her up on her knees and eventually feet.

Her temp shot up to 103.3 yesterday and stayed there for the next several times. The vet said it still wasn't reason to be worried. I thought anything over 102.5 was cause to worry. I'll be taking it again in a few minutes.

I'll feel her bag- never heard of blue bag but I'll look it up. Babies are still moving, just harder to find right now.

I appreciate all the thoughts that you're putting out there. It gives me things to consider. Like the pinched nerve. That could be why she went down the week before. It lasted about 30 minutes and then she was back up and normal again. And if she's closer to kidding than I'd thought, the hypocalcemia is a possibility too. That happened with my dairy cow in December. First time freshener, shouldn't have happened. I caught it right away and treated her so that ended well. It's why I thought hypocalcemia in this case originally and started the CMPK.

Everyone else- thanks for cheering me up about being an "ignorant goat keeper" I love you all for that.

[Deleted]

Bluebag is a type of mastitis, the worst there is. Bluebag generally would not show symptom like this. Been there done that One of the first symptoms (in my personal experience & others that I have helped) is that the doe has a sky high fever, not eating, grinding teeth, dull eyes, wont move, along with the udder issues that you think of when you think of mastitis. Your doe, it sounds like she is acting okay other then being down. With Bluebag she wouldn't be acting as perky or scooching around to get hay/pellets. If it was bluebag that made her go down, you would already be seeing necrosis of her udder.

I haven't had the MW but a friend of mine was mentioning that one of her goats was having issues with the back legs, thought maybe he hurt himself playing with another goat or jumping off something. Over time it was getting worse. They called a vet out and the vet had no idea on what it could be and suggested giving thiamine, if it didn't worked they should think about sending him to freezer camp. I saw him 2 days later and just spent time watching him. It really bothered me seeing him like that, then it dawned on me, meningeal worm. By this time he was showing the neurological symptoms. Talked for a bit and they started him banamine and SafeGuard. He started to improve but sadly there was to much damage done so they put him down

Neither Bluebag or MW sound like your issue, so that is good!


Watch her temp closely! Its a bit higher then I like.


Have you considered sending out any blood to get a mineral analysis? It is such a good tool when you are dealing with something new! We did this last year when a doe was dealing with a toxicity issue.   

[barefootfarmer]

@goatlady, No, I didn't even realize I could get a mineral analysis that way. What a great idea! I'll do that for sure. Thank you.

Her temp is back down to 100.5 I've taken it twice already. Whew.

I did feel her bag, just in case. It's normal. Filling up a bit, not hot. Looking good.

[Deleted]

How is she doing???

[barefootfarmer]

Boy, she's just the same as the day before. Pigging out on her alfalfa and attention. Babies are still moving, just not as much.

On a side note, sort of- Yesterday as I was leaving Midnight's pen, I walked over to the other hut to take a look at Pia- the other Nubian who is also pregnant. I was showing my friend how big she was looking. Then I lifted her tail to check things out and saw a bit of goo. I said- "Oh, look! Pia is getting started!" Then I looked at the floor, saw a placenta- and there in the corner was her doeling!!

So- I do believe Midnight will be kidding within the week. Last year they were about 5 days apart. The doeling is a doll. Half Saanen and half Nubian. She's a creamy white, floppy Nubian ears and a dark spot right between her shoulder blades. If someone can tell me how to post a picture, I'll get one up.

[aoconnor]

barefootfarmer, Congrats on the baby!!! Hoping for more good news very soon:-)

[shellymay]

Yippy and congrads on the doeling, still praying for Midnight 

[mzgarden]

Hooray for Pia and her doeling - sounds like a beauty. Still thinking about Midnight.

This is how I post pictures -maybe someone has a better option.
I don't use photobucket or snapfish or whatever but I do have a Facebook account.
I go to Facebook and upload a picture and mark it so that it's only visible to me to keep it off my timeline.
Then I go to that picture I just uploaded, left click on it to open it
Then I right click on it and in the pop up box I click on "copy image location'
Then I come back to HF, start a reply, click on the icon that looks like a little landscape picture (in the same row of icons where the smilie face)
When the pop box comes up, I right click in the image url box right over the http stuff in there already, and select paste and then 'Insert Image'

[barefootfarmer]

mzgarden , Let's see if that worked. This should be a picture of Pia's doeling.



 

[barefootfarmer]

Just to clarify, the pictures of the goat and doeling are of Pia, my healthy goat. Not Midnight who is still down and waiting to kid. 


Not sure why the second photo is so big. The one with her mom was taken as soon as I found the baby. The one of just the doeling was her at 24hrs old.

[shellymay]

AWE she is a cutie and so glad you are able to post pictures now  , can't wait to see Midnights, almost wished Midnight 
would of went first so you could of possible adopted one onto Pia, Okay so lets think about this Pia had a perfect normal
baby and Pia had no health issues carrying and both your goats on same diet, I really believe now that we may have all been
correct about the calcium being low because Pia only had a single so her calcium wasn't being taxed, Midnight might have 
trips is my guess....Sure wish Midnight would GET UP!!!!

[barefootfarmer]

Midnight has no intention of standing. My husband and I both lift, one at each end- and she just collapses. Puts her head into the hay and acts like we're killing her. You know, the way only goats can act.

I'll get some pics of Midnight to show you what she looks like from a top and side view. If I didn't know she wasn't standing, she'd just look like she was hanging out, chewing her cud. Really hoping it's just that she's carrying a lot of babies and it's all going to work out.

[mzgarden]

barefootfarmer, glad to see pics of Pia's doeling - adorable. Still praying Midnight will be ok and so will her kids.

[manygoatsnmore]

Yes, I sure do know the way only goats can act, lol! Drama queens...<insert rolling eyes here>. It sounds like she's doing well overall. I'd keep up on the CMPK and alfalfa and make sure she moves around as much as you can make her, even if it's just getting up on her knees and shifting weight from one side of her legs and hips to the other. It does sound like she's carrying more kids than Pia.

Pia's kid is adorable. What a lovely little surprise! I'm so glad you posted pics of them. I'm going to have to try that facebook method of posting - I can't seem to get a photobucket account set up.

[barefootfarmer]

manygoatsnmore, it was really easy using the facebook method. mzgarden,gave excellent step by steps. Be sure to actually "left click" the pic first- I skipped that the first time and it didn't work.

I was positive that Midnight would have her kids yesterday afternoon. She was restless, shifting all over the place, stretching her neck, yawning, curling her upper lip and had amber/reddish goo at first, then clearish/white. My husband and I sat out there with her for hours. I didn't get anything else done. Still no kids. Maybe today. Unless she doesn't.

[shellymay]

I think I would rather fix a toiltet then wait on an animal to have babies

Doe code for sure

[aoconnor]

barefootfarmer, Anything yet? I don't even own goats, but here I am anxiously awaiting news from you on Midnight!!! Hope all is well....

[barefootfarmer]

aoconnor, No! She's just hanging out while I wait on her hoof and tail. I have to keep telling myself that if she was up like normal, it could be a week or two of her having mucous etc before she dropped her kids. But since she's not able to get up, I spend a lot of extra time with her, so it's just driving me crazy. Stay away from goats, lol.

[barefootfarmer]

Midnight delivered two healthy bucks this afternoon. At the very end I had to give a little pull because I could see that the babies were stacked on top of each other.



She's trying to stand on her back feet. I'm going to give her a shot of iron soon, she seems anemic to me. I'm having to help the kids nurse because of course she's laying on her teats. Wish us luck and I'll update more when I get a chance.

[jd4020]

Bff that is one beautiful mama. I hope she does alright. I haven't commented but have been reading along. Those boys look good sized to me; like that color. I hope & pray every thing turns out o.k. for your goats.

[Mari-in-IN]

Hi barefootfarmer!
I don't have goats but have been following your thread with great interest!  So happy that they are finally here... 
Hoping a lot of stress has gone "poof" for you...
Saying a little prayer for you, your goat momma and babes...
~Mari