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Post by mzgarden on May 16, 2016 19:17:18 GMT
First time I have sent the Fecal away, rather than Vet getting the results and telling me how to treat so I want to double check my approach. Does were wormed day after kidding (Feb 9). Kids have had 3 rounds of Dimethox coccid prevention doses and the grain they are on is Noble Goat Grower with Coccid prevent. All are together on pasture during the day and in kid/doe barn pens at night. Does are milked OAD in the morning. Nubians- 2 kids - 4 months ; 2 does - 2 yr
MidAmerica Fecal Results: Kid: Stomach ++ Tape +++ Coccid + Total Count 12 Doe Tape + Coccid ++ Total Count 0
For the Kids I'm thinking Ivermect 1% 1cc/25# (stomach) + Safeguard 1cc/50# (Tape)
For the Does: 1cc/50# Safeguard for the Tape with a 4 day milk withdrawal
Sound right?
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Post by shellymay on May 17, 2016 18:53:43 GMT
I would read up on that count number of 12, seems with those numbers they don't need any treatment but I don't have goats and or don't understand the 12 count, might call your vet and find out if you should treat or not, the doe results say total count 0 again I am confused why you would treat....
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Post by mzgarden on May 17, 2016 20:49:54 GMT
shellymay, thanks. Yep, I'll be calling the vet to speak to that number. I'm intending to treat the doe for tape worm - not because they are in danger, but because the kids are with the doe and the kids can be at risk from tape worm. Plus, treating the kid but not the doe, when they're together, will leave the kids open for repopulation.
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Post by shellymay on May 17, 2016 23:30:57 GMT
After you call vet could you come back here and tell us what it all means as far as treatment and the numbers?
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Post by mzgarden on May 18, 2016 15:16:19 GMT
shellymay, Yep. I called and a tech asked me to email the report so she could take a look. She will call me when she has a chance to talk. More to come.
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Post by mzgarden on May 26, 2016 13:49:11 GMT
shellymay, apologies. I thought I had shared this and discovered nope, must have missed hitting the last button. Here's the response from our vet (note, one big animal vet is part of the small ruminant community, so he actually likes goats, lol) My name is Chelsea and I am Technician with RHVS. I have looked over the EPG results that you sent over. In my opinion it looks like they've either done their math wrong when calculating the EPG, or they have used two different ways to calculate.
Let me explain; in order to calculate the EPG we use a special microscope slide called a McMaster's, it has two boxes with 8 "chambers" in them. We tally the amount of each intestinal parasite that we see add them all together and then multiply the total sum by 25 and that gives us our Eggs Per Gram of feces. (We used approximately 4 grams of horse feces and 6 grams of feces for goats and sheep). However, when we examine fecals without using the McMasters chamber we will use a 0 out of 10 scale for the amount of eggs we see. So for instance if we see 4 coccidia eggs per field of vision (that's the section of the slide that we are looking through at one time) and we continue to see about 4 eggs in every field we would say that is closer to a 10 than a 0 so we could give it a 7 or 8 or possibly a ++ (we do not use the plus system for tallying fecals) all of these numbers can be pretty subjective, that's why the McMasters or EPG is such a valuable tool.
So I wouldn't worry about it too much now since you've already dewormed them, if you start seeing the same symptoms that you saw prior to deworming them feel free to bring us a fecal sample and we will give you a better idea. Our fecals are $18, if you collect a sample from the group it will be ok to just assume that the whole herd has the same amount of infection.
I hope that explains everything, feel free to call or email us if you have anymore questions. Have a great day!
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Post by shellymay on May 27, 2016 0:26:24 GMT
mzgarden, Thanks for the update, see the thing is all animals have parasites, and If my sheep test 500 EPG or less I wouldn't worm them at all, and if they were 750 EPG I would look at other signs like pale eye lids or softness of stool or did I really see worms in fecals out on the pastures, what I am saying is they can live happy happy happy with a 500 EPG count of worm eggs in test samples as that is not deadly at all for sheep.......Here is one site info but there are more out there that may be better (look at the EPG counts that they say are safe)... www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-9608.pdf
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Post by mzgarden on May 27, 2016 6:41:11 GMT
shellymay, thanks. I have to agree, if the results had come back just showing a 12 or 0 EPG, I would not have treated. It was the 2 & 3 plusses translating to Med and High incidence that caused me to treat. Clearly there's a disconnect in the report between a medium (++) stomach and high (+++) tape infestation vs small EPG counts. Next test will be done by the vet and I'll have a more clear option for discussion for results. The link you shared seemed to support the information from my vet as well. Thanks.
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Post by shellymay on May 27, 2016 11:23:49 GMT
mzgarden, contradicting I know but really we all need to do what is best for our farm and our situation, many things would or could change ones farm protocol for things like this exact situation, first and foremost is I am a firm believer that the YOUNG animals should always get some type of worming when they are young as they can't handle the same worm load adults can, also if one has no cocci preventative in place on their farm then treating for this is important when they are young because if they end up with cocci they go down hill so fast and you risk losing them. We do have cocci meds mixed in with our minerals and lambs are exposed to the minerals from birth and throughout their lives on our farm, also the amount of land they run on will determine whether one has to keep on top of animals and the amount of exposer to worm infested pastures, so don't let me or anyone tell you not to worm your animals and I hope you didn't get that opinion of me? I was just going off of the test results and now that we know the people who ran them might of showed results in a way that might of confused some of us, but I am a firm believer in testing and going off results and treating. One of these days you will know a pattern in your goats/kids and you will know what times of year to worm and when and what age to worm and what signs to look for and sooner or later you won't have to pay that fee to have vet check fecal as you will be as smart as the vet......DON'T doubt that last comment, my vet has goats and cattle and chickens and he has learned so much from us because of having sheep that at times they will call me and ask me a dose size of a certain med or something, so many meds are used that are off label for the species of livestock and the dose is so different per species that its hard to keep track of Did you know that there is NO reason that anyone should have hoof rot anymore as they have a med out there that is eradicating hoof rot, well the med and some common sense that is! Anyhow I hope your animals are happy and healthy and that is what matters
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Post by mzgarden on May 27, 2016 12:25:13 GMT
shellymay , thanks. Please don't ever be concerned to raise an alternate or even a contrary point of view. I'm a firm believer in getting all points of view, especially from experienced folks, even if they don't all agree. I would much prefer to have a good back and forth engagement than anything else. This is the way I learn and maybe others as well. Thanks for the vote of confidence too that eventually I'll have enough time under my belt, experience and knowledge to take over a number of elements myself. I ask for help and instruction as much as I can and then try to take that and run with it. Our vet has indicated that we seem to know a fair amount considering how little time we've had goats. I attribute this in part to the great mentors/teachers I have on this forum. Always feel like you can share your perspective or ask pointed questions. It's all about the animals!
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