Would you advise leasing a horse to a riding stable?

[Deleted]

I'm spending this summer at a summer camp in Northern Wisconsin working as the camp nurse.  Today I got to take 5 boys out to a riding stable  It was a pretty nice stable - I really liked the way they did things and the horses seem to be very well cared for.  I might be coming back here to work every summer, if life works out that way.  I talked to the people at the stable and asked if they board horses and they said they do, but only if they can use them.

Ona is coming along quite well in her training and I think next year she'll be fine for the staff and intermediate riders.  The trainer is going to start trail riding her this weekend.  I'm just wondering what the pros and cons of such an arrangement would be.

[aoconnor]

Myself, personally, I won't lease or rent out my horses. I am the rider/trainer/caregiver, and I like to keep it that way. Sadly, I have never gotten a horse back with better manners than it went out with, it has generally been the opposite when someone else rides my horses. Just saying...but, for you, it may work well if you could be right there watching and able to control the situation, should anything untoward go on.

Oh, and is that Miss Ona that was SO BAD the trainer had a buyer for her so you could be rid of the problem?! LOL! Right...what a crook. Hope she doesn't try that again on you!!

[mollymckee]

Not unless a kill buyer was the other choice! There is not much that ruins a horse faster than letting unlimited numbers of strangers who don't know how to ride, ride yor horse every day. She will get lots of different cues, lots of mouth pulling and kicking while pulling. Unless your plan for her is to plod down the trail, doing what the horse in front of her does, ignoring her rider, no . You will ruin everything you have paid to have her trained. Oh, and I wound not expect to pay board when they were ruining my horse.

We don't let anyone ride are horses unless we know them well and are with them. When we were showing, no one else rode our horses. It's not fair to the horse.

[here to stay]

Hard mouth, dead sides, and a horse who only knows following another horse. If you can retrain them, you can probably get her back. But a bad habit never really disappears, it just being dealt with.

[Otter]

It depends. I've seen it done well, and, unlike most, I feel that just as there is a point in a rider's training where they benefit from riding many horses, just so, there is a point in a horse's training where they benefit from having many riders - provided those riders are well supervised.

Just about anyone can ride my horses with me there, I'd be ashamed to call myself a trainer if they couldn't. I suppose I am the exception, as most everyone is astonished when I ask them if they'd like to ride, so take that into account

You know Ona, you know where she is in her training, you know the situation she'd be in and the instructors who'd be in charge of her, if you think it would be a good idea, it probably would.

My main caution would be to make sure they have an insurance policy in case of accidents on any part, make sure you can pull her out at any time, and make sure you have somewhere for her to go that day if you decide to pull her out.

While I have seen it work out just as bad as described, it's pretty predictable based on the farm and lesson program.
The facility I trained at, Knoll's Farm, would very occasionally let someone partially work off board or stud fees by letting the horse be used in lessons. The horses got an hour of exercise a day, occasionally 2 and were very well cared for and spoiled. The lessons were with advanced students so the horses were better after than before. So it's certainly possible for it to work out well.

[mollymckee]

Otter, you are thinking trainer and lessons, I'm thinking trail riding. Not that it would change my answer much, especially with a young horse I may want to show. Letting people that don't ride or ride well ride your horses, most of them will be messed up. There is a good reason that top trainers do not give lessons on the horses they show, except to top students that may show that horse. Letting whoever comes in the door and pays go trail riding on a young horse that you have paid a lot of money to have trained will not do the horse any good. I would not let anyone give lessons on her either. There is a reason most top trainers that give lessons use retired show horses or well trained horses that for some reason don't do well in the show ring. Letting beginners ride your horse will change the way your horse respons and set the training back. I would not do it.

[Otter]

I could be reading it wrong, but my impression was that the stable is part of the summer camp that Fffarmergirl is working at. And on a separate note, the trainer that Ona is with is taking her out of the arena and onto some trails.

No, I wouldn't let my horse be part of a rent-a-string, but I would and have let them give lessons and be ridden supervised.

As I said, me, personally, once I have a horse understanding a signal well, I then want them to understand that it means the same thing no matter who gives it.
  It does change the way the horse responds and not necessarily in a way that sets their training back. It is always in my mind that it is the rare horse that has one owner, and as a general rule, I train for others or for resale, so I need versatile, responsive horses. I know that I can get them to do what I want, so to me that's not the point. But again, that's just me, and we can certainly agree to disagree.

[Deleted]

Thank you all so much for the input. The stable is not right here at the camp, it's a mile away and not owned by the camp. I would like Ona to get lots and lots of rides on her and the trainer says she's one of those horses who will have to be worked almost every day to keep her from getting sassy, but maybe I can find a way to actually keep her here at camp with me and just ride her myself if I come back. I was thinking maybe a trail riding summer would do more harm than good but haven't had much experience with it so just wanted to get your inputs. There is a girl here who was able to keep her horses here at camp for 5 years so maybe I can do what she did. She got the portable fencing and put it up.

[aoconnor]

I would strongly advise against letting anyone else ride Ona much! She s a handful, and very smart. She is pretty valuable to have her not under your direct control. Just saying:-)

[Otter]

Jul 10, 2015 15:42:16 GMT @fffarmergirl said:

Thank you all so much for the input. The stable is not right here at the camp, it's a mile away and not owned by the camp.  

 Then no, I wouldn't, if you or a trainer you know and trust isn't involved, that's a no. 

Keeping her with you and riding yourself would be awesome, I hope that works out for you!

[horseyrider]

Not this one. Nope. The best kind of horses at camps are the kid broke, grandmother broke, bombproof, and darn near lobotomized. Even if a horse has many years under saddle, they may not have the kind of disposition to tolerate conflicting cues, shifting weight, and lack of direction. And many horses see no harm in doing something other than specifically directed; and if the rider doesn't have enough tools in their toolbox to deal with that, then suddenly they're on a runaway, a balker, or bucker. Unless and until a horse has training that has been reinforced with years of consistent riding and training, it's simply unfair to expect them to be able to cope with a camp job. And even with that kind of training, most lack the right temperament.

Nobody rides my horses but me, and so few other folks that I could count them on the fingers of one hand and still have enough fingers leftover to scratch a good itch. Nope. The liability involved in having minors ride something of mine is enough to make my eyes roll back in my head and a string of drool form. And I carry an extra $2M personal liability insurance in addition to my homeowner's. Knowing your horse is green and sending her out anyway could easily amount to negligence, and insurance won't pay out when there's negligence. You can't even begin to consider a horse anything but green until they have several years of good, consistent, successful riding under their girths.

*shudder*

Gotta say though, you're a sweet soul to even consider it.  But after decades in the horse business and watching what happens, I'd advise against it.

[WindyRidge]

We often have friends over after church on Sundays and everyone wants to ride. These are rank beginners and while my horses are safe enough to tolerate an afternoon, I can tell behavior-wise once the day is over that they've had to put up with beginners all day. My smartest one especially gets to the point where he says "nuh-uh" and starts having issues. While I do think it's very important a horse learns to accept and listen to any rider (I believe it was Otter first trying to make that point) there is also a limit to what some horses will tolerate. A Sunday afternoon is one thing. Week after week is quite another. If Ona is "sassy" by nature I'm afraid I agree with horseyrider and think this situation is not just asking for trouble with Ona's training but potentially setting someone up to get hurt, depending on who is riding her.

[aoconnor]

horseyrider and WindyRidge, I couldn't agree more with both of you! Though I tend to never let ANYONE on my horses, I have lately allowed an advanced 17 year old Pony Club rider who just passed her C3 and is well on her way to her B1 trial, to get on one of my TB mares and hopefully will go many miles and levels with her. I also have her mom riding one of my QH mares, a little cutter that is a good little trail horse as well. I simply can't ride all of my horses, much as I would like to. Having those two ladies ride a couple of my horses is a difficult decision, but I trust them both implicitly and watched both of them ride the mares for over an hour with me in the saddle of another of my guys watching them ride and work. I am there each time the horses are ridden, but I am confident that both will be able to handle what either of the mares throw at them, though I am still slightly less sure of the daughter on my TB mare as she hasn't a ton of correction experience and my mare is a strong, tough horse. I am watching that pair closely, but won't stop the arrangement unless I see something I truly don't like.

Other than that, no one steps up on any of my horses. I had one gelding I sent to a "trainer", he came home worse than he was when I rescued him to begin with. Very thin, mentally blank, and skittish to the touch. Unable to look me in the eye, wouldn't come in when approached, overall a terribly bad decision on my part to allow someone else to get on him at all. He is the only horse I ever sent out, I simply won't make that mistake again! But he did come back around and I have him under saddle in Dressage, he is doing wonderfully well now for me. But it took a long time to get him back to normal. I would not want fffarmergirl to have this happen to Ona.

[Deleted]

I still have so much to learn about horses! I didn't realize they actually were so easy to ruin. Although my trainer has said she was worried I'd ruin Ona, I thought she was just saying that because she wanted her. After reading all of your comments here - I'm kind of glad I did things backwards and bought a baby. This way by the time I finally get to ride her I will know only one other person besides me has ever ridden her, and that is my trainer. She was planning to take her out on her first trail ride this weekend, I'll have to see how that went. I can't wait to get back and finally ride her but the trainer says I need to take some lessons on her old show horse first. She says I can't ruin her old horse.

If I didn't have this forum (and the one on the old site), I would have made soooo many more mistakes by now. I appreciate all of you so much.

[aoconnor]

You and Ona will be just fine together, you won't ruin her. If your trainer is telling you that, she is not much of a trainer, or friend! Yes, it is smart to take lessons on an older, more seasoned horse that will let you learn some things you will need to know, but you also need lessons on Ona, and if your trainer can't tell you how to ride your own horse I would find someone who can teach you how to ride her!!

[Deleted]

Thank you, Amy! I wish I lived near you!

[aoconnor]

Jul 13, 2015 11:47:41 GMT @fffarmergirl said:

Thank you, Amy! I wish I lived near you!

How's summer camp going? Hope you are having a good time:-) I know you are there working, but camp is camp!!

Come on down! There's plenty of room in Texas for a nice couple of folks like you and the hubs! Girl, don't ever let anyone discourage you as far as Ona goes, from the pics and her pedigree, I'd say she is a good one to hold on to and learn from. People who know her lines and see her will try to get her, just keep that in mind! 

Anytime you need anything let me know, I am always glad to help if I can.

[WindyRidge]

As long as you work closely with a trainer you are comfortable with I agree you'll do fine with Ona. The key I think with horses is to realize just how many different opinions, mind sets, and training methods there are out there. Trust your own instincts - trainers don't always know best. As long as you and Ona are both progressing and you're happy and enjoying her, that's what matters. If things are going wrong and you're getting frustrated that's when it may be time to say a given trainer isn't right for you. Even once you're out of regular training, don't wait while an issue builds. As soon as you have a problem get help. The sooner you address it the easier it will be to fix and the sooner you'll be enjoying riding again.

I think your current trainer is right to put you on a school horse too. It sounds like you're still a fairly new rider and with Ona being new to training, it will help if you are more comfortable with all the right cues. The old school horses know their jobs and are very forgiving. If you're anywhere close to the right cue they say "oh, you mean (whatever)" and do it. Whereas with a greener horse, if you're not exact she may go "what are you asking for??" and then get upset and confused. It's important to ask your trainer what Ona does when she gets confused. Some horses just ignore you, some shut down, others can get fussy and antsy and that's where dangerous behavior (bucks/rears/bolts) usually comes in. I would imagine what your trainer was (hopefully!) getting at was that Ona is not solid in her cues yet this early in her training. You might inadvertently set back her training ("ruin" does seem awfully harsh) if you confuse her with cues slightly different from what the trainer does. As you and Ona both advance, that problem will resolve itself. That said, if she's going out on a trail and you can't at least get on for a walk around an arena I'd be scratching my head a bit about why not.

It's interesting, I gave a few lessons on two of my boys. Both are drafts so more suited to driving than riding but they are safe and know the basics. I have no issues riding either. Well, the guy taking the lessons could NOT get either horse to trot. They didn't get upset or act out, they just ignored him. I suppose they realized he was a beginner and took advantage of that. A good school horse would have happily trotted while he bounced around and found his balance. The point being, it can be hard to learn yourself while riding a green horse. Being able to focus on *you* can be very helpful. Once you're on Ona, you'll have to spend just as much time focusing on *her*, at least as you get started with her. If you're not pretty solid in your own skills it makes splitting your attention much more difficult. You'll get there. Just be patient and enjoy the ride.

Let us know how the trail ride went.

[Otter]

Jul 13, 2015 2:01:12 GMT @fffarmergirl said:

I still have so much to learn about horses! I didn't realize they actually were so easy to ruin.

They are not at all easy to ruin! And you will not ruin Ona, so don't worry about it. I mean that. Learn, yes. Worry, no.

What it is easy to do is 1) for a green horse and rider to give each other bad habits and 2) for a green horse and rider to totally adjust to each other and the horse is useless for anyone else (until it is really, truly and actually trained) and the "rider" can't ride any other horse. I've seen that last one a lot, lol, Walter Farley even wrote about it! And that is what your trainer is referring to. Which is hardly a fate worse than death, just not the way you want to go about it, although many horse owners never own or ride a horse they didn't "train themselves" and run the gamut from nervous to proud that no one else can ride The Black. I hardly think you are likely to fall into that trap.

[aoconnor]

And just saying this to make you feel better...On the 4th of July (last week!) I went to my first sorting ever and took two of my very green young horses. One a TB gelding that is 5.5 years old, the other a QH mare that is 6. They both did really well for me, but would not approach the cattle (neither had ever seen horned calves, and these calves were Corriente cattle with big horns!). I had a better time getting my mare to respond in the pen with the calves, but my gelding was having none of it. He has never, ever, offered a buck with me, even after everything he has been through. But that day, as experienced as I am and have trained my herd for multiple disciplines, I didn't catch his first signal of distress and the second one was a demand...he sent me into a 6 foot high somersault over his head and slammed me onto the ground in a heap. Because I was in a pen with rather large horned calves and a freaked out horse (not to mention a handful of well known professional ropers, reiners, and cutters watching on), I wasted no time lamenting, I got up, caught my horse, got his leg untangled from the reins, found my right boot and put it back on, climbed back up into the saddle, and finished my 90 second ride. I couldn't move for a week, but I rode my mare for my other 5 runs I had gone there to do, and feel pretty good overall about the whole thing. I learned some VERY valuable things while flying through the air, things I will NEVER forget!!!

What I learned...I may know my horses and be a good rider/trainer, or whatever, but never, ever, think I won't come out of that saddle should the issue arise. Be prepared, and when it does happen, be forgiving, understand what caused it (with my gelding, it was jus too much stimulation and stress for his first time out to a sorting. But in a dressage arena he is perfectly mannered and has never once been frightened), and then be prepared to avoid putting your horse in that same situation in the future (he AIN'T a sorter!!). As long as you are learning and understanding horse life as an owner and rider, you will be fine and progress into a good team with Ona:-) We are ALL going to hit ground once in a while...LEARN FROM IT!!!

[here to stay]

And ruin is a very relative term with riders. I have ridden with people who told me I had ruined my horse by ever allowing her to eat grass while mounted. But I, on the other hand, rode 20 miles or more at a time, was out for 8 hours a day, had a cue for it being ok to eat ( strangely I said "Want some grass?"), and like to pause at times to chat with friends while we all let the horses refuel a bit. So this lady's ruined horse was my best horse for almost 20 years, who never took advantage of the grass grazing to stop on her own.
But I'm sure the occasional grass eating rather than standing there waiting for her command would have driven this woman crazy. I can see it.

[mollymckee]

aconner, my Dad and Grandpa taught me that" there's no horse that can't be rode, there's no cowboy that can't be thrown! " usually when dusting me off from getting thrown!

The main problem with letting others , especially poor riders, ride your horse is then the horse sometimes isn't quite sure what you want it to do. That moments hesitation is the difference between winning and not placing in the show ring. I don't think a horse needs to know different riders, especially bad ones, but maybe we expect different things from our horses. I can't remember the last time we sold a trained horse. With kids and grandkids that ride, if we have an extra horse someone wants it--sometimes when it isn't extra!

[Deleted]

Summer camp is going pretty good. I'm glad I came and it's helping me a lot with my loneliness and isolation that I was feeling. It is very hard work, though - often 16 hour days and getting up in the middle of the night to check on kids. I don't get free time every day but when I do, I enjoy laying in the sun or cycling. I got to take kids horseback riding and help teaching canoeing, riflery, and outdoor cooking

I had a terrible dream last night that someone stole Ona - I'm never going anywhere without her for this long again!

My best friend who was considering moving to the Ozarks is now considering TX instead because he husband has a good job prospect there....so maybe we'll end up there, who knows!

Oh boy - only halfway through playing hookie during lunch to get a little free time and the boys have discovered I'm in the health center. Time to find a new place to hide LOL There that's better I'm hiding in my room with the door closed. Don't know how long it will be before somebody knocks on the door and asks for a cough drop.

I found the best trainer I could find up here and can't think of anybody else I could go to, and I'm not going to complain too much about her because she has Ona moving so beautifully. She's a show person, though, and I don't know if there's any way I could ever have Ona shown. I'd have to find a handler and have no idea how to go about that. She is training her own horse for showing too so she doesn't really have a lot of time for trail riding, and she's honestly not that interested in trail riding. She didn't take her on the trails this past weekend - she says she's loping her this week and she'll take her on the trails this weekend. I hope she does well.

I'm a fairly new rider and have rarely done anything in an arena. I would really love to show Ona in halter classes and maybe walk trot while I learn how to do more with her. Showing does look like a lot of fun except there seems to be a lot of catty behavior with a lot of the women showing. I am not at all catty and just have no clue how to respond to that kind of behavior and it gives me a lot of anxiety, so I don't know if I could enjoy showing or not. The trainer said Ona is a "cute mover" and a "very quiet mover." It would be so much fun to show her if I knew how to do it.

From what I've heard, I think I understand that you can throw a horse's balance off somehow and get a "cute, quiet mover" into a not so cute or quiet mover? I thought maybe that's what the trainer meant when she said I might ruin her but I'm not sure.

I know that Ona did rear over backward with the trainer when she first started driving her, and then when they got back to the barn Ona pinned the trainer to the wall and wouldn't let her out. I'm pretty sure it was because the bit was pinching her mouth when she asked her to back up, and the trainer didn't pick up on that. Nothing like that has happened since, though. Also at first the trainer was telling me that Ona was aggressive and I was having a hard time figuring out where that would have come from. She was never at all aggressive before. It turns out that the trainer is not at all into natural horsemanship and the person I got her from and where I boarded her until she was 2 was into natural horsemanship. So she was trained as a foal to turn and face the handler and when she kept turning and facing this trainer she misinterpreted it. Then one day it clicked, I guess, and she asked me if the person I got her from had trained her to do that. So since that's been figured out she's doing much better with her. I hope she'll do a good job of giving me lessons.

oops sounds like I'm needed, will have to come back later!

[aoconnor]

Jul 13, 2015 18:06:11 GMT mollymckee said:

aconner, my Dad and Grandpa taught me that" there's no horse that can't be rode, there's no cowboy that can't be thrown! " usually when dusting me off from getting thrown!

The main problem with letting others , especially poor riders, ride your horse is then the horse sometimes isn't quite sure what you want it to do. That moments hesitation is the difference between winning and not placing in the show ring. I don't think a horse needs to know different riders, especially bad ones, but maybe we expect different things from our horses. I can't remember the last time we sold a trained horse. With kids and grandkids that ride, if we have an extra horse someone wants it--sometimes when it isn't extra!

Exactly:-) I have never been one to relax about the possibilities, I just didn't expect that one at that time, that's all! My boy knew he had crossed a line and was really, really quiet and good the rest of the time there. I did not approach the pens with him again that day, I just let him be in the arena checking the rest of everything out. He doesn't have to sort, I was mostly just doing a payday with my mare and threw the boy on as well:-)