Mini with a big belly

[Deleted]

I bought a 6mo old miniature horse 10days ago. He had a big belly then but I thought he was fat. He already had a thick winter coat on and I didn't dig hard enough. The sellers assured me he had been wormed.
Had him vet checked last Thursday and when she heard who seller was told me she didn't believe that to be truth. If you dig thru his coat you can feel his ribs although they aren't terribly pronounced they are there. She feels he has been getting pushed out of the feed and needs better nutrition. She recommended I worm him with panacur or strongid. So I went with strongid and followed directions using 300# dose.
When should I see a decrease in belly? With pups it's pretty quick but I can't say I see any change with him yet. He's eating about 3# of purina miniature horse feed and getting 2 flakes of hay daily. Some days he's quite lively but tonight he was a little quieter than usual.
TIA for any input.

[aoconnor]

If he doesn't bounce back overnight you may have a heavy load of parasite die off and it can cause an impaction colic. Keep an eye on the little guy, call your vet if you see white gums or straining to poop.

[Deleted]

I wormed him last Thursday aoconnor. He's been pooping fine so far. I was thinking about worming him again on 11/22 which would be 10days. I typically do that with goats. Thoughts?

[here to stay]

At least a month. He needs to process new food into muscle and fat. He might swjng over to the small horse dark side and get too fat.
I would plan on reworming as, depending on the worm, killing active worms causes a release of encysted worms not to mention that wormers do not generally kill all worms in their various life cycles.

[WindyRidge]

I've never brought back a skinny one so have nothing useful to add. Just wanted to say congratulations on your new addition and remind you, pictures required or he doesn't exist.

[Deleted]

If I could post pictures here from my phone I'd be set! I've tried to post from Facebook uploads and haven't had any luck. Guess I'm tech challenged.

[horseyrider]

First, the suggestion to deworm is right on. Youngsters are often targets for ascarids, and can get some pretty dramatic loads going. The good news is in time, horses develop an immunity to them. Still, I would personally make sure I run fecals eight weeks after, just to make sure I'm making an impact. I see you're from West Virginia, and I don't know how the grasses in your area keep going; but both large and small strongyles are risks too. Be aware that they often go dormant during winter, encyst in the lining of the intestines, and cause colic when daylength in the spring causes them to migrate.

An often forgotten reason for big bellies in babies is fibrous feed. Sometimes, based on appearance alone, horses are assumed to have parasites; but sometimes it's not parasites at all, but gut fiber. See, babies lack enough of the right bacteria in the cecum to digest fiber very well. Adult horses can do this too; you sometimes see pendulous bellies on horses left on pasture that isn't mowed, where the plants become overmature. Plant fibers, when young and tender, are mostly cellulose; but as they mature, flower, and go to seed, develop into hemi-cellulose and lignin. Horses can digest the first, but not the last two; and babies have difficulty with all of it. Undigested fiber lines the gut, and an adult can carry as much as fifty pounds of it through the cecum and small intestine.

Babies require the most tender hays, cut very early when soft and sweet. They also require probiotics. As sucklings, they inoculate their own guts with the correct bacteria by eating some of the manure from their dams. If they're given junk hay, or left to survive on overmature pasture, they can eat all day and still be unable to utilize the nutrients therein, because the nutrients are encased in hemi-cellulose and lignin.

Decades ago, a holistic veterinarian told me about a terrific product called Pro-Bi. It's a liquid probiotic that contains both prebiotics and probiotics. He asked me if I remember Petri dishes from biology classes, and I said yes; and he said that the Pro-Bi turns their whole gut into a Petri dish. Not only does it furnish the proper bacteria, it furnishes the nutrients for the bacteria to gain a foothold. Since going with Pro-Bi, all my babies have the tight, slim abdominals of older performance horses in their prime. I also dose it after a horse has had a course of antibiotics, as they destroy good gut bacteria along with the bad, infecting bacteria.

Pro-Bi is not the only probiotic out there, but it's one of the best. Along with a good deworming program, I would always feed a probiotic to such a horse. Periodic fecal exams can help you know what's going on. A fecal costs about $8 from my vet, and is good insurance. Fecals are only positive when the worms are shedding, and don't necessarily tell you about pinworms or externals that can make an animal unthrifty; but they remain a useful tool. Dewormers are potent medicine, safe when used occasionally; but horses with heavy loads can colic with their use. The quiet you see may be that he simply doesn't feel well with the endotoxins from the dying parasite load.

I hope he comes along fine, and that you have a blast with him!

[Deleted]

So horseyrider you suggest a probiotic which I had considered so no problem with me getting that. What will help get any undigested matter moving? Something like a oil drench? Need to get the undigested matter out that is clogging up the intestines if that is the problem, correct? Do you think the probiotics alone would fix it?
I am thinking he was fed coarse hay by the looks of the farm from which he came. Not the best set up by far. He's getting a good quality 2nd cutting now at the boarding stable so I think that should stop future issues.
What about withholding hay and going with beet pulp instead?

I've never had trouble with my big horses that I've had. My rescue just needed fed and basic care and he was good. I've had more experience working with goat health/nutrition/parasite issues so I'm falling back on my goat experience and what I would do there. Just not sure if that's the right path or not.

[aoconnor]

@hull, Remember, this is a mini, not a regular sized horse. Minis easily founder on good grass, and even as a youngster it should be fed cautiously so as not to introduce too much sugar and starch into his diet. I have 2 minis, they both are on pasture with grass that isn't terribly good. They get no grain, just grass. If I have to, (and it sounds like your little one would benefit from a good feed right now) I feed a small handful of Nutrena Special Care, which is made for very easy keepers or horses prone to founder. I usually only give them a little bit if they have to be stalled for any amount of time due to bad weather, otherwise they just graze, for your baby I think a couple of cups a day would help him. You might want to supplement with a little probiotic, I use Pro-Bios or Full Bucket oral probiotics. With your little one just being wormed, I would go with an oral paste, if you go with the liquid you will have to top dress it on something, and as I said above, grain isn't necessary for minis.

Also, to make sure you are hitting all parasites, I would worm the next time with Equimax, it is safe for babies. After 30 days, you can worm again. I use Safe Guard and Equimax (I use Safe Guard until fall, then after the first freeze I use a dose of Equimax, then again in the late spring) until mine are yearlings, then I do rotation worming according to the time of year. Your vet can give you a good idea of what would work in your area seasonally.

[Deleted]

aoconnor. I'm aware that he does not need the quantity of feed that a big horse does. He is not on pasture. If he was in better shape and not still a baby, I wouldn't grain at all.
I will follow up with the vet later in the week. She should be calling with the required coggins test results anyway and see what course she thinks I should take on reducing his stomach size. I will reworm with a different med and get probiotics into him.
I want to FIX this guy and I'm frustrated that I'm not seeing a change or clear path.

[horseyrider]

Nov 18, 2015 16:20:30 GMT @hull said:

So horseyrider you suggest a probiotic which I had considered so no problem with me getting that. What will help get any undigested matter moving? Something like a oil drench? Need to get the undigested matter out that is clogging up the intestines if that is the problem, correct? Do you think the probiotics alone would fix it?
I am thinking he was fed coarse hay by the looks of the farm from which he came. Not the best set up by far. He's getting a good quality 2nd cutting now at the boarding stable so I think that should stop future issues.
What about withholding hay and going with beet pulp instead?

I've never had trouble with my big horses that I've had. My rescue just needed fed and basic care and he was good. I've had more experience working with goat health/nutrition/parasite issues so I'm falling back on my goat experience and what I would do there. Just not sure if that's the right path or not.

A high quality probiotic will indeed help undigested matter move on, but not like an oil drench.  What an oil drench does is mechanically lubricate the gut, as well as coat it.  Mineral oil is most often used, since it is not digested like animal or vegetable fats.  Of course, there would be no reason to use an oil drench for this.  Probiotics simply populate the gut with the correct bacteria for optimal digestion and for peristalsis, the activity of the entire alimentary canal movin' things along.  It's a very benign choice as it can do great good and cannot do any harm.  Unfortunately the same thing can't be said for an oil drench, but there are times when it's the treatment of choice.

Time and probiotics will be a great start, and correct exercise when he's older will tighten his abdominals further.

Second cutting hays are usually a great choice.  Minis do best on grass hays, and if he was mine, I'd be shopping for a mixed grass hay such as orchardgrass and timothy.  When I inspect the hay, I want to see no seed heads of the grasses, as well as no weeds.  Seed heads indicated advanced maturity for the plants themselves, which are generally too hard for babies to digest.  Personally, I would not go with beet pulp.  Grass is the natural feed for horses, having a Ca:P (calcium/phosphorus) ratio of about 1.5:1 to 2:1, and beet pulp is often 5:1 or higher.  We want the Ca:P ratio to be as close as possible to the horse's optimal ratio, right around 1.5:1, for slow, solid bone growth.  High Ca:P ratios can cause physitis, or inflammation of the growth plates.  Also, most commercial beet pulp shreds are sprayed with molasses for greater palatability, and adding sugars to babyfood is generally not a good idea.  For seniors, or for debilitated adult horses, beet pulp can be a godsend; but for babies, especially minis, I'd personally stay away from it.

I'm familiar with the probiotic that aoconnor mentioned-- ProBios.  It's well thought of too.  And she is correct about how to feed them.  Most minis are overfed and a few spend their lives on the verge of founder.  They look like little horses, but they need special consideration.  As the digestive system begins to function better, and as he matures, you might find your mini does the best in the Jenny Craig pen. 

Another thought is to have your barn dentist check how this baby's milk teeth articulate.  Minis can occasionally suffer from overshot jaw.  This means that the lower jaw is simply too big for the top teeth, and sticks forward.  When this happens, the teeth don't line up and grind properly.  It makes it hard for him to get the nutrients from the feed being offered.  To do this, the dentist will part the little guy's teeth and see first if all the incisors in the front line up with each other, for optimal tearing of grasses and hays.  Then he'll quietly, gently move the lower jaw sideways, back and forth, and both listen for scraping, and feel where it vibrates in his hands.  There's a lot of information to gain in such an exam.  I don't think at this stage I'd call the guy in just for your mini; but when he's next there, I'd want him to have a look-see. 

What sort of job do you envision for the little guy?  Is he going to drive someday?

[Deleted]

Thank you horseyrider. This is the kind of info I was looking for. I have probios at the farm so I will bring it up and dose him as well as reworm on Sunday to catch any new "hatchlings". Hopefully I will see a change soon after.
As to use, I hope to drive him. I have a cart already. Someday I hope to begin showing. I showed QH western pleasure in my teens and 20s. Now in my 40th year the minis are looking more and more up my alley.

[aoconnor]

@hull, You have gotten excellent advice here and I know you will do well by the little guy:-). Horseyrider has so much good information! I love reading posts from them, it is always good, informative info. I hope you are able to get some pics up sometime, I'd love to see him!