You already knew this is true....

[horseyrider]

But isn't it nice to have it confirmed? 


mentalfloss.com/article/75189/research-suggests-horses-can-read-human-expressions

[gracielagata]

I know!!! I have seen this all over today... seems so silly to have needed a study for it, huh?

Horses themselves are so visual/body expressive, even more than dogs I think... it would stand to reason that they would learn to watch that on us as well.
It also explains how those insanely awesome horse handlers can get a horse to do all sorts of neat stuff without seemingly moving their body much- the horse senses the small changes in their face and body position and understands what to do, just like the herd head doing the same thing.

[aoconnor]

I absolutely love using body language and facial expression to move my horses around! It is so funny to watch them watch me...ears forward and at attention, or trying to see/hear me while I move around them. It cracks me up !!

[horseyrider]

One of the really great elements of this is the way they can read our confidence, and the pleasure we feel in their company. Some of the finest folks I've ever known have four legs, a mane and a tail.

[aoconnor]

Feb 12, 2016 13:26:56 GMT horseyrider said:

One of the really great elements of this is the way they can read our confidence, and the pleasure we feel in their company. Some of the finest folks I've ever known have four legs, a mane and a tail.

I absolutely agree with all of this!

[gracielagata]

Agreed, the folks on 4 legs comment is wonderful!

I am working on this concept a lot with my daughter's gelding. We've had him about a year and a half. And while is is ubersafe for a kid, I find myself having issues understanding his intents when I go out to feed. I will be petting him as he eats his hay, and he swings his head around to me like he wants to nip/get protective of himself, but never really does (he is known to be nippy). So I have made it my point to stand still and exude calmness and security and leadership type stuff to him and observe him while I do it, and try to avoid doing the hand to the face front, as he really doesn't like that.
It seems we are making progress, as he lets me pet him on other neck-to-head spots and seems to enjoy it without looking distressed. (Side note- he is 17ish, and been owned by a few different people. I won't say he was abused, as I feel it is cliche, but I do feel like he likely was cowboy'ed in the head a few times- i.e. smacked when possibly undeserving. We definitely have had some on the ground loose in pasture behaviors to work on, as I can only guess that wasn't done much with his previous owners maybe?)
Anyhoo....

[horseyrider]

Feb 12, 2016 14:27:40 GMT gracielagata said:

Agreed, the folks on 4 legs comment is wonderful!

I am working on this concept a lot with my daughter's gelding. We've had him about a year and a half. And while is is ubersafe for a kid, I find myself having issues understanding his intents when I go out to feed. I will be petting him as he eats his hay, and he swings his head around to me like he wants to nip/get protective of himself, but never really does (he is known to be nippy). So I have made it my point to stand still and exude calmness and security and leadership type stuff to him and observe him while I do it, and try to avoid doing the hand to the face front, as he really doesn't like that.
It seems we are making progress, as he lets me pet him on other neck-to-head spots and seems to enjoy it without looking distressed. (Side note- he is 17ish, and been owned by a few different people. I won't say he was abused, as I feel it is cliche, but I do feel like he likely was cowboy'ed in the head a few times- i.e. smacked when possibly undeserving. We definitely have had some on the ground loose in pasture behaviors to work on, as I can only guess that wasn't done much with his previous owners maybe?)
Anyhoo....

You sound to me like you've moved on to what I call the Third Element of Horse Ownership.

First Element of Horse Ownership is awe of the horse.  Sometimes the horse does whatever they feel like, because they feel no sense of assertion of hierarchy from their human, so they fill that gap.  Sometimes it's benign, and sometimes it's dangerous. 

Second Element is those owners who assert dominance at all costs.  Sometimes this is the result of being in the First Element in a dangerous situation, and the owner becomes insecure and scared, so they pull out the "I'll get you before you get me" card.  Sometimes it's because they've been listening to the Guru du Jour, who touts "leadership."  Regardless, it's all dominance and submission without regard to the individual animal, their needs, or their history.

The Third Element is where the owner actually begins to read the horse.  The horse becomes an individual, a sentient being with feelings and priorities, often with a position they've earned by being trustworthy and honest.  There's give and take here.  Perhaps the horse has a deep fear of, for example, aluminum foil.  First Element folks keep all aluminum foil out of the horse's life, regardless of how difficult or limiting it becomes in their horsey lives.  Second Element owners will confront the horse with aluminum foil at every opportunity, until the horse is either numb, exhausted, or in hopeless submission.  But Third Element owners see the give and take of it.  They see their horse as an individual.  Does the horse hate aluminum foil, or fear it?  Can they minimize exposure without sacrificing riding pleasure?  Can they mitigate any likely damage from exposure to aluminum foil?  What else does the horse contribute to the partnership? 

I have a gelding that I've owned for nineteen of his twenty years.  I started him under saddle, showed the hair off him as a HUS in his younger years, and have always worked him on trail.  I believe that regardless of the horse's occupation, trail riding keeps them mentally fresh, their ears forward, and offers real life opportunities to use the skills we value so highly in the showpen.  There's a small section in the woods where we ride that he simply doesn't like.  When asked to go there, he'll go; but he's tense, on the muscle, and spooky.  He'll travel anywhere else in an area that is miles long and wide, over any terrain, through water, woods, up and down hills, and he's calm and relaxed.  But that spot?  I have no idea why he finds it so objectionable.  But through his performance and obedience elsewhere, both on trail and in the showpen, he's earned the right to have an opinion on the matter.

So we don't go there.

gracielagata, it sounds like you treat your horses like individuals, honoring their past, and taking into consideration who and what they are.  My hat's off to you.

[gracielagata]

Feb 12, 2016 15:52:55 GMT horseyrider said:

Feb 12, 2016 14:27:40 GMT gracielagata said:

Agreed, the folks on 4 legs comment is wonderful!

I am working on this concept a lot with my daughter's gelding. We've had him about a year and a half. And while is is ubersafe for a kid, I find myself having issues understanding his intents when I go out to feed. I will be petting him as he eats his hay, and he swings his head around to me like he wants to nip/get protective of himself, but never really does (he is known to be nippy). So I have made it my point to stand still and exude calmness and security and leadership type stuff to him and observe him while I do it, and try to avoid doing the hand to the face front, as he really doesn't like that.
It seems we are making progress, as he lets me pet him on other neck-to-head spots and seems to enjoy it without looking distressed. (Side note- he is 17ish, and been owned by a few different people. I won't say he was abused, as I feel it is cliche, but I do feel like he likely was cowboy'ed in the head a few times- i.e. smacked when possibly undeserving. We definitely have had some on the ground loose in pasture behaviors to work on, as I can only guess that wasn't done much with his previous owners maybe?)
Anyhoo....

You sound to me like you've moved on to what I call the Third Element of Horse Ownership.

First Element of Horse Ownership is awe of the horse.  Sometimes the horse does whatever they feel like, because they feel no sense of assertion of hierarchy from their human, so they fill that gap.  Sometimes it's benign, and sometimes it's dangerous. 

Second Element is those owners who assert dominance at all costs.  Sometimes this is the result of being in the First Element in a dangerous situation, and the owner becomes insecure and scared, so they pull out the "I'll get you before you get me" card.  Sometimes it's because they've been listening to the Guru du Jour, who touts "leadership."  Regardless, it's all dominance and submission without regard to the individual animal, their needs, or their history.

The Third Element is where the owner actually begins to read the horse.  The horse becomes an individual, a sentient being with feelings and priorities, often with a position they've earned by being trustworthy and honest.  There's give and take here.  Perhaps the horse has a deep fear of, for example, aluminum foil.  First Element folks keep all aluminum foil out of the horse's life, regardless of how difficult or limiting it becomes in their horsey lives.  Second Element owners will confront the horse with aluminum foil at every opportunity, until the horse is either numb, exhausted, or in hopeless submission.  But Third Element owners see the give and take of it.  They see their horse as an individual.  Does the horse hate aluminum foil, or fear it?  Can they minimize exposure without sacrificing riding pleasure?  Can they mitigate any likely damage from exposure to aluminum foil?  What else does the horse contribute to the partnership? 

I have a gelding that I've owned for nineteen of his twenty years.  I started him under saddle, showed the hair off him as a HUS in his younger years, and have always worked him on trail.  I believe that regardless of the horse's occupation, trail riding keeps them mentally fresh, their ears forward, and offers real life opportunities to use the skills we value so highly in the showpen.  There's a small section in the woods where we ride that he simply doesn't like.  When asked to go there, he'll go; but he's tense, on the muscle, and spooky.  He'll travel anywhere else in an area that is miles long and wide, over any terrain, through water, woods, up and down hills, and he's calm and relaxed.  But that spot?  I have no idea why he finds it so objectionable.  But through his performance and obedience elsewhere, both on trail and in the showpen, he's earned the right to have an opinion on the matter.

So we don't go there.

gracielagata , it sounds like you treat your horses like individuals, honoring their past, and taking into consideration who and what they are.  My hat's off to you.

Thank you. You make my heart smile with what you wrote, thank you! I have only been around horses 5ish years, owning them for 4.5ish lol. But were were sure to take others' advice and buy mentally sound horses who were happy being pasture horses in a herd first- because ultimately that is what they will always be, no matter how much or how little we ride them. I tend to feel that has helped us deal with the issues as they come up a lot.

For this specific gelding... I was doing a bit of the 'I will get you before you get me' when it came to his face touch reactions... I have likely lightly popped him a couple times when he might not have done anything. Something I have not done in a while, I as I feel we weren't getting anywhere, hence the 'new leaf.'
On the ground is where I am most fearful of any horse- in the saddle?! Heck, as long as I stay up there, those teeth can't get me! lol
... But I haven't been able to figure him out- the whole watch the horse and learn concept we speak of- He is quiet in his body language, so much so that I can't tell if he wants to bite when he turns his head to me in those moments. So I have learned that since I have yet to be really bitten, I am going to stop being scared and nervous and just let him do what he is trying to do- maybe he is trying to head hug me even, ya know? So far I have yet to have to reprimand him at all in those times now... he just relaxes and munches his hay, and occasionally turns his head to me to say hello and get an ear scratch.  Even our farrier has acknowledged that he just does not like being touched from straight ahead, so like you say- honor it- why force the issue on something that is for your own human gain? And maybe as we own him for longer and longer, he will be okay with it, just as he is coming around to be being handled while eating- something I hear lots of people don't do with their horses, so he likely had to learn to tolerate as well, by his behavior. 

I jokingly blame it all on the fact that he is a 1.53 hh 'beast' with this giant towering, but regal, head carriage (my mare is 14ish hh, and the other gelding right at 15?, I am used to shorties lol). And that he is appy, with the 'crazed' appy eye whites lol. 

And I love how you express regarding the area of the woods- I so agree with that!! People who say a horse should be a 1000 lb machine who does what I say when I say it annoy the crud out of me. Yes, a horse who behaves stupidly for no good reason, like there is some disconnect between them and the rider/owner... those drive me batty. But a horse like you and I describe, who is trying to convey that something is off, something is getting their attention, and they do it quietly and politely- they deserve to be heard.

I bet your boy will go through that wooded area because you have taught him that you are there and will protect him, so he does it for you. It isn't killing him, and as such, maybe you don't go to that spot every ride that brings you near it. 

I love this forum... so much to learn from each other.

[here to stay]

As a person who was once stuck on the other side of an infinitely tiny creek with my first horse, who would not step over this 1 foot wide creek that we had happily gone over on the way out from home, I am definitely not wholely into the third element. As far as I could tell the difference was simply it was now getting dark.
I tired all sorts of things that qualified as persuasion. I gave him a "good look" to the extent his nose was in the water. I got off to step across it myself to lead him over and the horse refused to budge- I ended up dangling like a giant fruit from his bridle as my confident step across holding the reins was not followed by the horse.
After it got so dark that I could no longer see anything but the distant light of home calling me, things definitely got more tense. Eventually he surprised me with a huge leap I barely stuck.
So there is a safety issue in that sometimes, even if I recognize the horse actually has a good point, and I respect that, the bottom line is that someone has to make the final decision and that has to be me.

[gracielagata]

here to stay, I hope I didn't convey that I am even half in that third element... by far I am not! I think some of it comes to me well by chance. We are always learning with our equine friends.

[horseyrider]

gracielagata, something that might be helpful to you in understanding your horse is a knowledge of how horses see. They have the capacity for both binocular (two eyes) vision, which is how we see, as well as monocular vision (one eye at a time), where they look at things from the side. They use binocular vision to inspect interesting, challenging, or threatening things, since binocular vision gives them the ability to have depth perception. Monocular vision lacks depth perception, but their prominent eyes on the sides of their heads give them a wide view of things to the front, the side, and more or less behind, which is very useful for detecting motion. When using binocular vision, their ability to see in a focused manner is limited. Ever notice your horse's head shoot up and their ears fork forward as they notice something unusual in their vicinity? You may even see their head hover up and down as they search for the clearest focus. Things that are very near are impossible to see since the area directly in front of their faces is impossible to focus on; the image is very blurry. They often throw it in reverse in an urgent attempt to discern what's in their immediate space, and they're hardwired for flight over fight if possible.

Inside the horse's eye is a retina that has a ramped shape. When a horse is looking at something either monocularly and then binocularly, or vice versa, the change in the image as it shifts from one to two eyes and back can cause the image to *jump.* Most of us have been leading horses past object of concern, make it partially past, only to have the horse spook out of nowhere. It's not really out of nowhere; in their keyed up state, they're reacting to a perception of movement of the object that never really moved at all.

Some horses are protective of food. They'll let you know with a swish of the tail, a hardness of expression in their eyes, a bit of a pinch in their nostrils and muzzle, and a gentle but noncommittal folding back of the ears. If they add to this a swing of the head, do note that this is a ritualized expression of displeasure, a warning, if you will. A horse has the power to bite hard enough to fracture bones, to cave your face in with a blow from their teeth, to tear flesh off in heaping handfuls; and yet they only suggest a threat. This is one of those crossroads where decisions about management priorities need to be made.

OTOH, it's conceivable that a horse might just feel better enjoying their dinner if their companion (you) is in monocular (side) view rather than binocular (front) view so they can keep you reliably in view.

Alpha herd members have the right to move other lower ranking horses off their pile of hay and expect them to surrender it. Some do it with teeth flashing and hooves flying, but most of the time, when the hierarchy is already established, will be able to saunter over and barely flick an ear to signal the lower ranking horses to move. Who has the hay pile can be a real issue for horse/human relationships. Think of it like this: You decide it's feeding time, so out the door of the barn you go, and you drop a pile of hay and walk away. Horse figures he's moved you off or you've abandoned it in the face of his approach, so they consider you subordinate. It's a good idea to drop the pile once in a while, and standing tall with your chest out and a very direct assertive eye, refuse to let them eat until YOU allow it. YOU are alpha, YOU control the hay as well as the hierarchy. To carry this further, it's very beneficial with the hard-headed, arrogant, or willful horse for you to make a stand over haypiles, because the distinction it creates about deferring to your alpha status actually pays off big time when you go to swing a leg over them and ride. You get a more obedient, responsive, respectful horse with precious little confrontation.

I sure hope this makes some sense.

As for my boy, he always goes where he's sent. He is very obedient and highly trained. I've had very few other people on him through the years, but once my chiropractor was on him, and she was surprised when she was making a turn at the end of the arena that he jumped over the mounting block. She asked me, Why did he do that? I asked her, Did you steer him around it? She said no; and I told her He goes where he's sent; and if you send him directly to the mounting block and don't tell him to go right or left or stop, he will continue in the direction he's been sent. That high level of training demands a rider who is willing to be much more active, and ride every single step as a participant, not a passenger. Yes, he'd go in that bad area in the woods for me if I insisted. But horses see things differently than we do; they have a far more acute sense of smell, they notice motion and outlines better than we do, and they hear things that we don't. I trust and respect this boy's judgment if he says something there isn't right, and know that there are times where I need to defer to my partner because he knows things I don't.

[gracielagata]

Yep, I hear you on all of that, no worries! I have never allowed a horse to run me off the hay, and require all 3 of them to go for a walk while I set the hay piles out, and only when they come to their piles politely, slowly, and safely are they allowed to have them. Run up? Nope, I will send you off with my body or a whip flick in the air, if you choose to be really stubborn. But those moments are truly quite rare. And I have never seen one of them act as if they won the pile from the human.

And please don't worry- during feeding, he has never in anyway behaved in a dangerous or threatening way to me. All of those things to look for, I thankfully have a pretty good grasp on being able to find.
I think at first he was a bit puzzled as to why I would bother to stand and chat and rub on the 3 of them lol. But I love to do it for their health, the interactions, and for watching and learning how they interact with each other, and how they listen to me.

And I bet there is some accuracy in that, that it can be his eyes, and how he would prefer to see me--- I forget about that. He certainly seems to like it better when I stay in one spot in one eye.

It's just so different with him- my mare and the other gelding have learned to tolerate that obnoxious habit of ours in reaching for their faces and noses to rub them. This guy is goofy in that he usually meets your hand with way more open lip than I am comfy with- maybe he wants a treat, maybe he does it to say I don't prefer this contact, but thanks. Either way, I have learned to not immediately approach him this way, and voila, I hardly ever see his mouth reaching that way anymore.

I suppose all of this rambling is my way of saying I am in general working on not being nervous of him anymore, as he has never really done anything to warrant it.

[horseyrider]

Isn't it a fun journey? It's a challenge sometimes, but I find it exhilarating. I can feel in your narrative that even if or when mistakes are made, you find the same joy there.

[gracielagata]

horseyrider, Thanks, I try. I have so much to learn still, as horses seem to be a never-ending journey. I seem to think much more about 'raising' them then I do about my almost 13 year old daughter! Or is that lol