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Post by alice on Dec 11, 2019 18:36:57 GMT
Apparently I've been living under a rock or something. I just learned about broad leaf herbicides in hay killing garden plants. Soooo... I can't use hay of unknown origin as garden mulch, as it may have Grazon on it. I can't use manure from my neighbor's cattle because his cattle DO eat hay from fields that were treated with Grazon. I can't mulch or make compost from that hay or manure from his cattle. This was a topic of discussion at the Farmer's Market. I had experience with garden plant death due to using composted cotton gin "trash" (the stuff that is cleaned off the cotton boll) because it contains residue from the defoliant that is used on the cotton plants before harvest. My "soil" very rocky and alkaline here outside of Austin, and my plan WAS to bring in wood chips from the electric coop and lawn clippings from my grandson's yard business, then compost those materials with added free manure. POOF. That idea is no longer possible. I am on the hunt now for a local source of a high nitrogen product to add to my wood chips. Blood meal? Fish meal? Any advice would be appreciated. Informative articles: www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/sustainable-farming/killer-compost-herbicide-contamination-zl0z1211zkinwww.the-compost-gardener.com/picloram.html
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 20:56:45 GMT
I use fish waste from the docks. Horse manure from a neighbor who makes his own hay, no spray along with the pelleted sawdust bedding he uses. I also use a lot of leaves and garden waste that I compost with the manure and fish waste. My rabbit, chicken and goat manure. Why I say 1 enterprise feeds the others, around and around in a circle....James
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Post by 1shotwade on Dec 11, 2019 23:25:46 GMT
Ms Alice, I honestly don't think it works like that. I'm not an expert of anything but I'm 69 years old and have a lot of gardens in my past. That just doesn't ring try to me. Products like roundup can remain in the soil for a period of time and can leach to other plants close by but as far as transferring to hay or going through a digestive system and maintaining an ability to harm you or your crops just don't sound right!
My brother and I were talking one day about how "they" say drinking Sassafrass tea will cause cancer. His comment was "Probably,,,, if you drink 20 gallons a day for 20 years!"
I would do a lot of research before changing plans. Wade
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Post by alice on Dec 11, 2019 23:48:41 GMT
Unfortunately, that is exactly how it works. I didn't post till after I did the research. I also had a friend who has the problem. Please read the information at the links above. Edited to add: "Herbicides are chemicals used to manipulate or control undesirable vegetation. Our industry has come to understand that a few herbicides can persist on vegetation and in the soil for months or years and we call these products persistent herbicides. The class of herbicides from the picolinic acid family is of the greatest concern. These chemicals are marketed for use in hayfields, horse pastures, golf courses, roadways, grain crops, and lawns, to kill unwanted broad-leaf weeds. Persistent herbicides are colorless and odorless. Scientific studies reveal that pass unaltered during animal digestion (including microbial digestion) when used at labelled rates. In fact, animal digestion tends to strengthen the impact of these chemicals through concentration because the animal processes the food but passes most of the chemical as a waste." www.compostingcouncil.org/page/persistent-herbicidesFactsheet: cdn.ymaws.com/www.compostingcouncil.org/resource/resmgr/images/USCC-PH-Fact-Sheet-2-for-web.pdf
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 0:50:03 GMT
Not talking about roundup, other herbicides. Yes, it has happened, can't grow anything from residual chemical....James
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Post by solargeek on Dec 12, 2019 4:10:23 GMT
This has the whole story. www.theprairiehomestead.com/2016/08/curled-tomato-leaves.htmlHere is part of what she found. Read the whole article but she's dead on. "Aminopyralids are a classification of herbicides which kill broadleaf plants, while leave grasses unaffected. Therefore they are a wonderful option if you are growing hay and do not want weeds in your hay crop. The problem? Aminopyralids can go through an animal’s digestive tract, sit in the compost pile, and still affect your crop for several years after they are sprayed. They will eventually break down when exposed to soil organisms, but it takes a while. Why I think Herbicide/Aminopyralid Contamination is likely my issue: The type of curling and twisting I’m seeing in my tomato plants is identical to the pictures I’ve studied in aminopyralid-damaged crops" She has tons more and explains thoroughly how she poisoned her entire garden.
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Post by feather on Dec 12, 2019 4:31:53 GMT
Good information. Thanks for the links.
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Post by 1shotwade on Dec 12, 2019 11:32:20 GMT
That's one on me! I had no idea! Wade
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Post by dustawaits on Dec 12, 2019 20:05:19 GMT
2-4 d can or as the label says, leave the plant in 72 hours..making if safe for milk cows to graze on the pasture. But ! It is extremely unreliable as to what it will do. It can be found in plants at sprayed strength 3 months later. That is how we get poison in our body a little at a time, from eating meat from sprayed pastures, or drinking/eating dairy products. It is now beginning to be a case of wonder..... celiac or chemicals on the grain and all other things etible.
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Post by freelove on Dec 13, 2019 13:58:26 GMT
When crops are sprayed before harvest to dry them there is no time for the herbicides to dissipate if that would ever happen. You are consuming it directly from the application.
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Post by solargeek on Dec 13, 2019 15:52:58 GMT
I think I live in the "Roundup" capital of the world. First thing they do Is spray the The early crops. They spray fungicide twice during the growing season. Then they spray more Roundup to desiccate. Then they harvest within days of spray. Potatoes up here (which is the largest potato producing area in the country besides Idaho), are spayed with Roundup even more. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_desiccation
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:23:09 GMT
And wheat. Not just Roundup. Short growing season, wet year, lots of weeds. All as pesticides become less effective. Kill wheat and weeds so there is less green mass to run through the machine. More, more, more.
Roundup was made for ground contact application, not used that way only, now....James
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:48:21 GMT
By ground contact I mean, sprayed, weeds die down, ground is worked. Incorporating, sprayed material and dirt....James
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Post by bowdonkey on Dec 14, 2019 16:15:34 GMT
Fedcos latest catalog has a couple pages on GMOs and Roundup. I was on the fence for years, but am now fully on board against the use in food crops. Either as a weed spray or drying agent. Some of the research that convinced me is the book "Wheat Belly" and "Eating on the Wild Side". Food changes, proteins, amino acids and alot of other words to big for me to type let alone pronounce when they mess with the genetics and then add Roundup to the mix. If anything my research got me thinking more about the food chain. I think alot of contamination will be in your food regardless, as it floats in on wind and comes down with the rain. I can only minimize the consumption. Eat close to the vine, just make sure it's non GMO.
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Post by 1shotwade on Dec 14, 2019 16:38:05 GMT
It's a no-win! Example: There is an upcoming sugar shortage. The sugarbeet harvest has been damaged so less sugar available. Now they are telling us that all beet sugar is GMO. So we should use pure cane sugar. I was in Walmart and down the sugar aisle. The beet sugar was everywhere as usual but next to it the cane sugar was gone with the exception of one 15 lb sack. I purchased it and was telling friends about this when one said."The cans sugar is bad too, sprayed with pesticides!"
What do you do? We have gotten to the place now that we can not avoid the intake of poisons in one form or another! Wade
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 16:47:50 GMT
I believe there is a line. Everyone is different but when it is crossed it hits like a freight train. My nutritionist is convinced. It has happened to me 3 times, total collapse of my immune system, just became overwhelmed. I had a doctor years ago say everyone is different and my "redheadness" made for a weaker immune system. If you can not have all organic, at least go organic in things you don't or can't peel. Wash everything good, then store. Pastured, no processed as you don't know "what" was used, or added. We still use some wheat but we know where it is grown and how it is grown. So many things are modified. We need to save seeds to keep "original" varieties....James
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 16:58:50 GMT
It's a no-win! Example: There is an upcoming sugar shortage. The sugarbeet harvest has been damaged so less sugar available. Now they are telling us that all beet sugar is GMO. So we should use pure cane sugar. I was in Walmart and down the sugar aisle. The beet sugar was everywhere as usual but next to it the cane sugar was gone with the exception of one 15 lb sack. I purchased it and was telling friends about this when one said."The cans sugar is bad too, sprayed with pesticides!" What do you do? We have gotten to the place now that we can not avoid the intake of poisons in one form or another! Wade Anything processed is suspect. We use maple sugar or honey. Pear juice for canning fruit. BUT even honey can be contaminated, additives and pesticides....James
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Post by bowdonkey on Dec 14, 2019 21:22:25 GMT
Do a search on what crops are GMO. And purchase acoordingly. My son and I love pickled beets. What luck, no table beets are GMO. Sugar beets are. No cane sugar is GMO as far as I know, but Roundup is used as a drying agent on it so it can be harvested at a certain maturity and time. Do a search, it's quite fascinating how sugar comes to the table. Potatoes are allegedly killed with Roundup so they cure at a uniform rate before harvest. Don't know if it's true or not, but our family doesn't consume store bought potatoes. My kids insist on organic foods and we spend the extra to buy it. But is it really organic beyond the label? We are taking someones word that it is. The only way to get organic, is to grow and store as much as you can. That's probably as good as it gets. It might not be the perfect system because of a few environmental factors, ie wind, rain, hauling in contaminants in soil, compost etc. But it's the best we can do. And the peace of mind is priceless.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 21:55:03 GMT
Sweetie reminded me that she gets a little organic raw sugar from the bulk bins at Winco for her cereal.
A friend of ours is in Arizona on BLM land. They were talking about the fields near them on the Colorado River were organic produce. Last week they showed that they were driven from their spot by planes spraying a cotton field a mile away. The plants were nice and green. A week later the strippers moved in and they were showing them harvesting and the plants were all brown and dried up. If they had to leave the area while the spraying was happening, how much spray got on the organic produce. They were picking those fields that day....James
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Post by mollymckee on Dec 14, 2019 23:48:11 GMT
There is a lot of misinformation around. If round up is going to be used on hay, it has to be the round up ready hay seed. Round up ready seed is at least twice as much as non round up ready. Round up also loses it efficiacy when it gets mixed with dirt. In our area farmers don't normally use round up on hay. They don't need the extra cost and our summers are dry. If you till your garden before planting, anything sprayed with round up should lose its killing power in a week or so. Asking at your nearest ag school should be much better information than trying to guess from someone using nation wide guesses. Farmers are going to save any money they can. If you have a golf course for a neighbor, things might be different.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 0:32:14 GMT
Like said before, not roundup. Problem is with a broad leaf spray (weed spray) that leaves a residual. Also the not using more than needed is not going to fly any more. Any more than what, the price of tillage is so high and spraying is so much cheaper that many are over spraying to make sure it kills everything so they don't have to make another trip or till. Also using it only, not rotating with something else so weeds are becoming tolerant, so more is needed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 0:39:05 GMT
As to Roundup it is now being used outside it's product labeling. Either higher doses, crops not within labeling and/or on crops that are not worked into the soil. Lots of no-till (no contact with soil) corn on corn and corn-soybean rotation so no break in Roundup use in between crops. As I explained above. Many weeds are becoming Roundup resistant and volunteer roundup ready plants (corn and soybeans) are very resistant and taking higher doses to control.
Modern farming=All plants are weeds when not where they belong.
A few weeds/acre uses nutrients and moisture that can keep a crop from maturing and producing to specific goals. make the difference between insurance payment (crop failure) or profit, in today's margins....James
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Post by grillbilly on Dec 15, 2019 12:40:56 GMT
My best guess to combat this is a compost made of Bocking 14 comfrey and maple leaves, both grown on my own place. Bocking 14 is the non-seeding variety that doesn't spread like crazy, it is propagated by root division. It is one of those *forever* plants however so I'd suggest planting it out of the way and not in the garden. If grown in moist but well drained soil you can get several leaf cuttings (to the ground) per summer from each plant. It is a vigorous plant.
I've also tried a mix of coffee grounds and sawdust. Sawdust is from the Amish sawmills, poplar trees destined to be pallets. I don't buy organic coffee so it may have chemicals sprayed on it, who knows anymore. I do know that worms and strawberries thrive in the mix once rotted down for a year.
It's a tough row anymore to grow without unwanted chemicals sneaking in!
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Post by wally on Dec 15, 2019 13:26:34 GMT
Around here prairie hay is not sprayed with any thing and is never fertilized. My brome grass field is given a pellitized 42-0-0 every year and never sprayed. Alfalfa is subject to spraying with a pesticides as needed
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Post by alice on Dec 16, 2019 19:25:40 GMT
A bit of googling turned up that alfalfa is now GMO Round Up ready. A friend with an organic truck farm was feeding his small goat herd alfalfa in the winter. We are now searching for organic hay producers close enough to our area to be cost effective. Here's an article that has lists of product names and a list of vegetables that could be effected. lee.ces.ncsu.edu/2016/03/herbicide-carryover-in-hay-manure-compost-and-grass-clippings/
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 20:02:40 GMT
These days you have to watch commercial fertilizers. With the cost of shipping some mined ingredients like potash are shipped as refined and then inert ingredients are added when blended. Some of the "sand" added is really bad stuff....James
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Post by dustawaits on Dec 18, 2019 16:27:00 GMT
A neighbor heavily mulched her garden with straw. The garden basically died. What lived was puny. She protested to the place she bought the straw. Given the name of the producer, she contacted him. The field had been sprayed with a product that stayed in the plants ground for three years. I do not know what it was. But I did not buy straw for my garden.
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Post by feather on Dec 18, 2019 16:29:34 GMT
I guess we just lucked out. We've put aged manure on the gardens and straw for mulch for years. But, I'm not going to count on it anymore.
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Post by mogal on Dec 18, 2019 16:57:28 GMT
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Post by freelove on Dec 19, 2019 13:40:49 GMT
A person who does gardening/landscaping professionally recommended alfalfa pellets for mulch and to improve the soil. I checked with the company before I tried it and found that herbicides have been used on the alfalfa in their pellets. I bought a bag of organic pellets and used them with good results, but now my local feed stores have stopped carrying the organic pellets. I can get local hay that is not sprayed, but I get too many weeds. I have friends who have animals that I get well composted manure from. I know their animals are not fed any contaminated feed and their pastures are not sprayed.
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