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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 4, 2015 19:01:45 GMT
Found her lying on her left side this afternoon; unable or unwilling to get up. Her eyes are darting around all over the place -
I'm thinking that it's either listeria or goat polio. Just gave her shots for B2 and Pen; intramuscular injections of 2ml and 1.5 respectfully.
How soon before signs of it helping (if it is one of those), or should I be trying something entirely different?
It's times like this that I miss being able to go to the HT goat forum for help, but it is what it is.... and goats die anyway.
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Post by mzgarden on Dec 4, 2015 19:34:58 GMT
I don't have an answer but would want help if it was me. I'm sorry I don't know her recent history/age - has she recently kidded? Does she have diarrhea?
What's her temp - up or down? If it's down, can you add blankets/heating pad?
Could it be milk fever/hypocalcemia? Calcium Gluconate 23% solution by drench
ps - HT Goat forum is one of the few I still go to over there. You could check in if you think they could help.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 4, 2015 19:44:38 GMT
I can try searching by wading thru EVERYTHING, as I have no access to their search engine since I'm not a member any longer.
She's about a 6 year old doe, who has had kids in the past, and who is about 4 months along now I believe. No diarrhea, and
I haven't taken her temperature *(yet), but she's not cold like her mom (Ruby) was when she had hypocalcemia 5-6 months ago -
symptoms not the same either. She's lying in the sun right now and no change that I can see.
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Post by shellymay on Dec 4, 2015 19:53:29 GMT
At four months along you should be able to see kids kicking inside her, can you??
Is it possible that one or both kids died for some reason and she is full of infection from kids rotting inside her? gross yes but can you do a check inside her, meaning can you glove up and put your hands up her female parts and check to see if there is anything rotting or small body parts that you can feel, if rotting kids inside there should be a foul smell on glove, just want to rule this out (internal infection from kids).. Sorry to here this
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Post by shellymay on Dec 4, 2015 20:02:18 GMT
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Post by here to stay on Dec 4, 2015 21:09:44 GMT
I agree with Redfish. But if you want, I can go to HT and post. I think i'm still good there.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 4, 2015 21:18:47 GMT
For polio the best to use is thiamine, but I've used fortified B complex with success, it just takes a lot and often! With the Fortified B, I used 4.5 cc per 100 lbs of body weight. If you don't have the fortified, just B vitamins, you'll need roughly 18cc per 100 lbs. Thiamine dosage depends on the the strength of the thiamine. If it's polio, you should see some improvement within hours. I did the fortified B every 6 hours until symptoms were gone. Listeria I've never had, but the dosage for procaine penicillin is 6 cc per 100 lbs of body weight, usually SQ. Dose every 6 hours til better than another 24 hours after all symptoms are gone. Dex is also used in this disease, dosage is 5 to 6 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight given IM in decreasing amounts daily by one cc. Ex 5 cc first day, then 4, then 3 then 2 then 1 then none. Dex is IM For both, you need to put them on a 'bread and water' diet. Grass hay and water only, no grain or treats or rich foods. Forage would be acceptable if you have any availble this time of year. Keeping her watered with electrolytes is very important. Agree with mzgarden , more info would be good. My guess is polio, but you know what that is worth. ETA: copperkid3 , I see you provided more info whilst I was typing, sorry! I see that I need to up my dosage substantially. She's not a big goat; about average with a delicate frame - probably 80 pounds tops. Unfamilar with some of the abbreviations like SQ or Dex, although I'm going to take a stab and guess dextrose? Isn't that a sugar? Thanks to all for your assistance, but I'm not very opptomistic at this point.
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Post by here to stay on Dec 4, 2015 21:39:27 GMT
Dex is usually dexamethasone, a very powerful anti inflammatory. SQ means injected under the skin as opposed to in the muscle. If it's goat polio, it can be a dramatic improvement fast.
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Post by mzgarden on Dec 4, 2015 21:45:01 GMT
My fortified Bcomplex is injectable and contains 100mg/ml Thiamine. So the dose would be the same using the B-complex at 100mg/ml as if you had injectable Thimaine 100mg/ml.
If it's polio - the reaction should be pretty quick. You're repopulating the rumen, which can't produce it's own Thiamine.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 4, 2015 21:56:45 GMT
Well.... I just went to check on her again....and she's still alive, but that's it.
Still down and there is evidence that she's been pawing sideways as the leaves are moved aside around her feet.
Eyes still darting and on feeling her nose, it's a bit cooler than normal, but then she's not in the sun anymore either.
Detected a bit of teeth grinding, so know that she's in some discomfort. Readministerd 4.25 ml of the vitamen B complex IM.
OH MY....I just noticed that Redfish says to give 4.5 CC's!....I don't have a syringe that big. That means I'd have to give her
10-15 more shots, as my syringe holds only 3ml tops. I feel like ....smh...
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Post by here to stay on Dec 4, 2015 22:05:41 GMT
1 cc is the same a 1 ml
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 4, 2015 22:48:34 GMT
Oh....well that's a relief to know. Wonder why I can't keep something like that in my head? Just got back from hauling her up to the barn and she's either heavier than I'd stated before, or 'dead weight' puts another 20 or 30 pounds on a creature. Anyway, I did see evidence where she's been drooling, but on doing the eye tests, she's fully aware of my fingers approaching and starts to shut them before it gets there. Making low grunting noises occasionally...barely perceptable, but still there. Had to grab her up by taking the two front legs in one hand and the two rear in the other, and immediately noticed that her head cranked fully back on itself to the left side. On another occasion, she suddenly stiffened and both left legs were taunt and rigid, whereas the other side was still able to be moved. This tightening suddenly passed and she again became a limp sack of loose goat....
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Post by shellymay on Dec 4, 2015 23:43:38 GMT
Do you have a drench to give her water with into her mouth??? she will need you to do this for her as she can't
drink on her own...
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 4, 2015 23:52:02 GMT
No.... no drench....ever since my dad told me the story about when he was raising registered Holsteins on the farm and his vet came out and decided to try the same thing....only it went down the wrong pipe and the cow dropped down dead!!! All the embarrassed vet could say was: "Sorry about that", and I guess he didn't charge for his 'house' call, but dad still had to dispose of a prize milking cow. So I'm a bit leery of putting liquids down a livestocks' throat. Never have learned how to do it. We'll see what tomorrow morning brings.
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Post by shellymay on Dec 4, 2015 23:59:12 GMT
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Post by mzgarden on Dec 5, 2015 1:32:58 GMT
I'll hold out a good thought for her tonight.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 5, 2015 2:43:51 GMT
Going to be checking up on her in about another 45 minutes....we'll see how it's going.
If she's still alive, then we'll give her another injection of B complex; if not.....burial in the afternoon.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 5, 2015 3:45:09 GMT
Well....she's still in the land of the living. When I last left her, I laid her down on her right side and she was still in that position just now. She still couldn't get up and her pupils didn't seem to respond to light; also when I tried to touch her eyeball, she didn't blink, so that isn't a good sign is it?
On the other hand however, she did try to pull away and move around when I tried sticking her in the rump with the needle. Either it's getting dull (likely) or I'm getting worse at administering injections (even more likely). Don't think that I got it into the muscle this time - more like just under the skin, but she didn't like getting poked.
I'm still not sure what this is....it's very possible that she got into some batch of spoiled or moldy hay, but then if so, why am I not yet seeing it in any of the rest of the herd? They all have access to the same stuff. I just don't know.
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Post by Bear Foot Farm on Dec 5, 2015 7:05:06 GMT
Mix up some TUMS in a little water and get some Calcium in her. She also needs water or she will die from dehydration
Keep pumping her full of Vitamin B and mix up some electrolytes:
Electrolyte Solution 1 Qt Water ½ tsp baking soda 1/4 cup Karo Syrup or Black strap molasses ½ tsp salt
She needs that for energy.
If she has a Calcium deficiency the Tums will bring her around as quick as most anything else
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Post by mzgarden on Dec 5, 2015 13:13:08 GMT
Seconding BFF -- she'll die no matter what meds you give her if she's dehydrated. Meds and vitamins are important, but if she is dehydrated, the system shuts down and she can't make use of the other.
I saw above where you said you don't drench -- I would think it's going to be critical that you drench her for hydration. If you're worried she'll die because you get the liquid down the wrong tube - she may be dying anyway, so you may not have a lot to lose but more to gain from forcing liquids into her.
Tums or CMPK if you have it, for the calcium. The electrolytes will help boost energy she needs to respond to the meds and includes the needed water to help with dehydration.
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Post by shellymay on Dec 5, 2015 17:12:56 GMT
How is she doing this am, is she still with you/us?
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Post by Bear Foot Farm on Dec 5, 2015 17:17:14 GMT
Use some bales of straw to prop her up in a more normal position
"Drenching" just means giving liquids orally.
It's not to be confused with "tubing" which is used to feed lambs that can't eat, or to relieve bloat.
You can also give STERILE liquids SQ
If you don't get her rehydrated very soon she's going to die.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 5, 2015 17:46:26 GMT
How is she doing this am, is she still with you/us? Yes, surprisingly she is.....although still down and unable to get up. A large cornish X rooster has taken up nursing duties in my absence and has cuddled up alongside her. Her eyes seemed to have settled down a bit; don't see them darting around erratically but then I just gave her a quick looksy - not expecting to find her alive. Best get back out there and administer some more B complex and I've just made up some electrolytes in a calf bottle which I'll try to get down her. I may yet have to put her down if she doesn't improve soon, but I'm leaning more and more that it is a form of goat polio and if we continue to get the B into her, she may come around.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 5, 2015 18:45:49 GMT
Okay.... just got back in from doing what I could for her and examing her more closely.
Got her propped up somewhat, but as soon as I released her head, it immediately swung
around to the left and hung down. On pulling it back in a more normal position, I
also noticed that she is drooling excessively/involuntarily and that her eyes are back
to dancing all around and not focusing on anything. I gave her 5ml of the B complex in
the left rump and she never even noticed either of the injections. I then tried to get
her to take the quart bottle of electrolytes, but she swallowed maybe 3-4 times during
a 10 minute try and all the while, she was grinding her teeth. If I decide to put her down,
is the meat worth saving either on what I've injected into her *(not concerned with the B
complex - but the small amount of pen)
and/or is it not advisable based on the fact that we really don't know what ails her?
I'm thinking it might have been more merciful to have left her out last night to go quietly
in the cold or the coyotes....then to let her continue to linger; she's not getting any better
that I can see.
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Post by shellymay on Dec 5, 2015 21:05:53 GMT
Yes, you have to make that decision on continued care or put her down to avoid her suffering, grinding teeth is a sign of pain ALWAYS so if you move her around head/neck area could she have a broken neck or back injury? I assume by now you would of known if she had any wound marks from a attack from a predator that she escaped from, before this happened did you notice any limping prior? No on eating the meat, the babies may be dead inside her and she maybe full of infection, AS far as the meds you gave her how many STORE bought animals do you think we have all purchased and eaten that had meds in them, (tons I am sure). SORRY I would how ever cut her open and find out if babies have started decomposing and how bad as I said earlier she maybe in trouble now because of dead babies inside her that died a week or so ago which caused infection in her, I would also cut her open to find out how many babies she had in her, remember to check both sides when cutting her open, Multiple babies is a great CAUSE for the calcium deficiency in preggo animals...
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Post by mzgarden on Dec 5, 2015 21:32:42 GMT
Drat. It does sound like the best efforts are not going to save her. I'm sorry.
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Post by copperkid3 on Dec 5, 2015 22:48:41 GMT
Yes, you have to make that decision on continued care or put her down to avoid her suffering, grinding teeth is a sign of pain ALWAYS so if you move her around head/neck area could she have a broken neck or back injury? I assume by now you would of known if she had any wound marks from a attack from a predator that she escaped from, before this happened did you notice any limping prior? No on eating the meat, the babies may be dead inside her and she maybe full of infection, AS far as the meds you gave her how many STORE bought animals do you think we have all purchased and eaten that had meds in them, (tons I am sure). SORRY I would how ever cut her open and find out if babies have started decomposing and how bad as I said earlier she maybe in trouble now because of dead babies inside her that died a week or so ago which caused infection in her, I would also cut her open to find out how many babies she had in her, remember to check both sides when cutting her open, Multiple babies is a great CAUSE for the calcium deficiency in preggo animals... No broken neck, no visible external injuries, no prior limping. One day she was doing what goats do - getting into trouble, and the next day, she was found lying on left side and unable to get up - along with the other myriad signs and symptoms. Drat. It does sound like the best efforts are not going to save her. I'm sorry. Ideally, they weren't the best efforts, but we don't always have that luxury....So then sometimes you win a few....other times not.
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Post by shellymay on Dec 6, 2015 4:10:18 GMT
Okay no limping or dragging hind end so that rules out meningeal worm.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2015 23:30:45 GMT
My guess is polio. You need to increase your B complex doseage. Massive doses of B-complex if you don't have thiamine. Check and see what amount of thiamine your B-complex has. she needs 100mg of thiamine. Calculate out what your b complex had in it and dose accordingly. I had a doe that I dosed like that and I definitely saw improvement in 16hrs. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 1:06:08 GMT
Hello, I just joined this forum I have been lurking for a while but thought this would be a good time to jump in the mix. I have been raising both dairy and meat goats for a while now, so I'm not new to this! I hope your goat starts to improve soon! I am thinking you are battling Listeriosos. It can be brought on be several things, one of the things is pregnancy. Pregnancy induced Listeria is usually seen at 4 months of gestation. If it is this you will need to up the Penn G drastically- enough to cross the blood-brain barrier. Dexamethasone should be used to help with the brain stem swelling. The Dex can cause the doe to abort, so keep that in mind. Keep giving the Thiamine too. Keep her hydrated, can you get any Ringers from a vet? This will help. Can she close her eyes? That is something people forget about...Sometimes they are not able to close them and if they survive it can cause other issues. Take her temp! If she doesn't have a temp give her some nurti drench. Do not give anything with molasses if she has a high temp. Give HIGH doses of probiotics. This is one of the biggest lifesavers. I know you said you are worried about drenching.... She will die if you don't do it, so if you do you are still giving her a chance. Go nice and easy, you can do it! We had a doe with listeria years ago, she was worse then your girl and I thought she would die for sure. After 3 long weeks of intensive care she pulled through! Remember to never put her in a sling because it can cause bloat! I know another member posted this link but I'll post it again. Use the chart and start upping the antibiotics. Try to get some more syringes, you are going to need them! www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.htmlIf you have any Q's just ask, I think I covered the basics pretty well! Really hoping Prissy Pants can get through this!
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