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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 2:40:17 GMT
I am finding hints of people having done this on 4wd forums, but no details how they did it. Obviously a Cologne engine bolt pattern is vastly different than SBF engine bolt pattern. Anybody hear of this being done? There are no kits. There used to be one to put Mustang V8 T5 behind a 4.0L, but it was overpriced and now discontinued. "world class" heavy duty T5s in good shape are not exactly cheap or abundant either, be kinda wasted in a pickup.
Everybody wants to talk about putting a built C4 and C5 automatic behind 4.0L. Grrr.... dont want an automatic. Though no doubt they would be rebuildable at home, they are just old school three speed automatics. No electronics.
I think this 4.0L in my Ranger has significant miles left and enough power, so kinda hate to swap in different engine just to be able to use a better transmission. I just hate spending money to rebuild or replace the light duty 5spd transmission in it. I dont need overdrive. Rear axle is geared 3.27 so engine is just turning 2400rpm in 4th at 55 to 60mph. Not going to save any serious amount fuel forcing it down to 2000rpm. The 4.0L is not great on mileage however you configure it. No better than an old pre computer carb engine of same displacement. I could even change axle ratio to 3.08 if needed to drop rpm further at hiway speed, not big deal. Granny four speed means I always have creeper gear to go up steep hill (like my driveway), even with tall axle ratio.
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 3:12:09 GMT
I actually just found a thread where some guy made a kit to do exactly what I want. Unfortunately this was back in 2006 and he wanted around $500. His website is long gone as are the kits. Too bad, like to seen pic of one. Think you could find a good used 302 V8 for less than that, which I am sure contributed to his failure. Though might be worth it in an emissions inspection state where legally swapping engines is big big hassle.
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Post by fordy on Dec 23, 2015 4:43:49 GMT
I am finding hints of people having done this on 4wd forums, but no details how they did it. Obviously a Cologne engine bolt pattern is vastly different than SBF engine bolt pattern. Anybody hear of this being done? There are no kits. There used to be one to put Mustang V8 T5 behind a 4.0L, but it was overpriced and now discontinued. "world class" heavy duty T5s in good shape are not exactly cheap or abundant either, be kinda wasted in a pickup. Everybody wants to talk about putting a built C4 and C5 automatic behind 4.0L. Grrr.... dont want an automatic. Though no doubt they would be rebuildable at home, they are just old school three speed automatics. No electronics. I think this 4.0L in my Ranger has significant miles left and enough power, so kinda hate to swap in different engine just to be able to use a better transmission. I just hate spending money to rebuild or replace the light duty 5spd transmission in it. I dont need overdrive. Rear axle is geared 3.27 so engine is just turning 2400rpm in 4th at 55 to 60mph. Not going to save any serious amount fuel forcing it down to 2000rpm. The 4.0L is not great on mileage however you configure it. No better than an old pre computer carb engine of same displacement. I could even change axle ratio to 3.08 if needed to drop rpm further at hiway speed, not big deal. Granny four speed means I always have creeper gear to go up steep hill (like my driveway), even with tall axle ratio. .............Hj , I would choose the T-19 , because the T-18 , NP-435 donot have a synchronized first gear like the T-19 !!! All three are heavy duty , but I'm not sure if they all have the same spline count ! The T-19 was can be found in the old IH Scout(s) and probably in the Travelals as well . , fordy |
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 4:44:47 GMT
Ok, just guessing from ebay pics, it would take up close inspection and measurements as to depth, etc, to be sure if there was more than a snowballs chance in July... But think the only way to have half a chance doing this fairly cheap under the ole shade tree is...
To use a bellhousing off the automatic transmission that was used on the 4.0L (which, unlike the bell on the manual transmission, is removable) and center it on a granny tranny. I have seen this sort of thing done on older transmissions where somebody wanted to use bellhousing from one make on another make transmission. Like putting a small block Chevy into a Ford. Though that was with manual transmission bellhousing from one make onto manual transmission of another make. And input shaft length and depth of bellhousing came into play. No given any such mix and match would work without lot measuring. Though one of the adapter outfits has a webpage on how to cheaply use a SBC manual bellhousing on Ford manual transmission and vice versa.
Adapting a bellhousing from an automatic to a manual transmission would be far more challenging for sure. But theoretically you could do it with just access to a small metal lathe to make an accurate centering jig.
Course on this sort thing, being off even a little bit means things dont last even if they bolt together.
I did also see a Lakewood racing bell housing drilled to fit lot engines including a 4.0L, but those are $$$.
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 5:18:38 GMT
.Hj , I would choose the T-19 , because the T-18 , NP-435 donot have a synchronized first gear like the T-19 !!! All three are heavy duty , but I'm not sure if they all have the same spline count ! The T-19 was can be found in the old IH Scout(s) and probably in the Travelals as well . , fordy The NP235 and the T18 were really intended for first to only be used off road. Or to get started with a really heavy load or on really steep hill. On road you used 2nd, 3rd, and 4th like you would a three speed. Starting off in 2nd gear like you would 1st with a three speed. I have a T19 in my F250 4wd (it came out of factory with a 6.9L diesel, though previous owner put in a 460 and I put in a 300. Its really nice in a 4wd since first is synchronized and with 4wd, you have low range in transfer case, so having a creeper gear not as important. With 2wd, creeper gear really handy here in the hills. Not as important in flat country. But they are more rare, usually either found behind 460 or the old 6.9L diesel. Seriously Ford missed a bet not offering them behind the 300-6. Been great option back in 70s? and early 80s? when Ford was pushing the 2.45 axle ratio to give crazy high EPA economy ratings for marketing purposes. With the light duty transmission they offered for that economy version, you really had to slip the clutch to get started even on level ground with no load. People that bought them, after some serious suffering, would either put a granny four spd into them or usually just changed the rear axle to something more practical. Cool getting 25mpg in full size pickup, but not when it made the pickup useless for actual work and painful to even drive empty. No doubt the different makes used different spline count. But as long as one could use the clutch disk that matched the transmission, suppose it wouldnt matter a whole lot. Have to be using same size or close to same size clutch disks. Now whether a clutch disk from SBF would fit the pressure plate and flywheel on 4.OL???? They used some smaller diameter clutches in Falcon, Mustang, etc, so maybe... Be great if the 4.OL clutch disk had correct splines for the T18, but being more modern, betting its metric?? Though I have seen people change out the center of a clutch disk. Hey if you are determined enough, just about anything is possible I guess... |
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 6:48:15 GMT
Ok, not Lakewood, though they sold them, its Quicktime RM-4060. And boy are they proud of them, bit over $700 is cheapest I found one. Course I am sure they dont sell whole lot of them so you are paying not only for high quality/safety for racing, but for low volume. But I think it would indeed adapt a granny four speed to a ford 4.0L Their is a ring to make bearing collar hole 4.85 inch. I believe thats size of collar on older Ford transmissions. Think I have an old three speed out in storage, could measure it.
NOw if I could only find one for $100.... LOL
Trick is to shadetree a $50 bellhousing from a 4.0L automatic to do same thing...
Ok more info from web. The T19/T18 have 4.85 inch diameter bearing retainer. Only some of the NP435 do. So yeppers that RM-4060 bell housing would do the job..... And apparently the only off the shelf bellhousing that will.
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 7:05:21 GMT
Exedy OEM FMD002U or equivalent seems to be clutch disk needed. Needs to be 9 inch diameter with hole for 1 1/16 inch 10 spline shaft. Used on Mustang SVO and on some six cylinder AMC cars.
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 23, 2015 18:57:06 GMT
All depends on how deep that automatic bell housing is. Is it deep enough for a clutch? I found that Jeep through the decades used several oddball adapters with the T18. Ranging from like 7/8 inch to 5 inch thick.. And different length input shafts and bearing retainers. Made life interesting for jeep people. But also means one of these adapters could bolt to back of that automatic bellhousing. Just depend if Ford shaft is long enough to work with it, or does it require tracking down some rare long input shaft from one of the old Jeep T18s. That could be onerous.
From reading seems most trouble for Jeep people is wanting to put a Jeep T18 from a J10 or J20 pickup into a CJ. The bigger jeeps used the longer shafts and long adapters. The stock CJ T18s were shorter, more like the Ford version. Usually the ford version is better choice to use in a CJ.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 0:20:12 GMT
Have heard the NP235 is nearly indestructable...even run out of gear lube...not sure of that opinion though.
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 24, 2015 0:57:05 GMT
Not sure where my brain is, the NP235 was a chain driven transfer case. The NP435 was the four spd transmission.
Most of the old granny four speeds if not seriously abused would greatly outlast the truck it was installed in. They used these in up to at least 2 ton trucks. So can imagine how long they lasted in regular pickup. Unfortunately lot people hired to drive such vehicles would jam them into gear over and over maybe just to see if they could break them. You can destroy anything if methodical enough. However they were fairly straight forward to rebuild. STill get kits for most of them. Mostly thanks to the Jeep folk that like them to gear down their Jeeps to a slow crawl.
And no they didnt shift like a sports car, but they werent horrible. I preferred them over the old three speeds with the external shifter linkages.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 2:55:52 GMT
Not sure where my brain is, the NP235 was a chain driven transfer case. The NP435 was the four spd transmission. Most of the old granny four speeds if not seriously abused would greatly outlast the truck it was installed in. They used these in up to at least 2 ton trucks. So can imagine how long they lasted in regular pickup. Unfortunately lot people hired to drive such vehicles would jam them into gear over and over maybe just to see if they could break them. You can destroy anything if methodical enough. However they were fairly straight forward to rebuild. STill get kits for most of them. Mostly thanks to the Jeep folk that like them to gear down their Jeeps to a slow crawl. And no they didnt shift like a sports car, but they werent horrible. I preferred them over the old three speeds with the external shifter linkages. Right..is 435...almost bought whole truck with 435 in it...gears were different than mine so I passed on it...could sell the 435 but can't give away the AOD I got. |
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 24, 2015 7:25:11 GMT
Not sure where my brain is, the NP235 was a chain driven transfer case. The NP435 was the four spd transmission. Most of the old granny four speeds if not seriously abused would greatly outlast the truck it was installed in. They used these in up to at least 2 ton trucks. So can imagine how long they lasted in regular pickup. Unfortunately lot people hired to drive such vehicles would jam them into gear over and over maybe just to see if they could break them. You can destroy anything if methodical enough. However they were fairly straight forward to rebuild. STill get kits for most of them. Mostly thanks to the Jeep folk that like them to gear down their Jeeps to a slow crawl. And no they didnt shift like a sports car, but they werent horrible. I preferred them over the old three speeds with the external shifter linkages. Right..is 435...almost bought whole truck with 435 in it...gears were different than mine so I passed on it...could sell the 435 but can't give away the AOD I got. I truly hate automatic transmissions. But writing on wall where that will be all thats available short of restoring an antique. Manual transmissions are few and far between in vehicles made this century. And not the old school automatics without the electronics. The modern electronic stuff makes the old three speed slush boxes like C-6 or TH350 look simple. They werent exactly simple simple, but if you could get a kit, you could rebuild one at home for cheap and they held up pretty well. |
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Post by hermitjohn on Dec 24, 2015 12:33:06 GMT
Another bellhousing option. Bellhousing from a mid 70s Mustang II with 2.8L V6. Correct engine bolt pattern and correct 4.85 inch hole for input shaft bearing retainer. Holes for transmission bolts are some goofy slanted pattern so betting some aluminum welding necessary to provide ears for the T18 to bolt to.
Fine and dandy except these are getting kinda rare plus there is demand. Seems some people actually like Mustang II with the 2.8L. They use these bellhousings to put a T5 in their cars. Having had a 2.8L in a first generation Ranger, I for sure cant imagine why anybody would want a 2.8L for any purpose. The four cylinder is better engine. And if you did want a 5spd, one like used in second generation Ranger and Explorer would be plenty strong for 2.8L in a light weight 2wd car. I suppose with the right cam... and maybe they enjoy revving the thing... But for sporty car either 302 or even a 4.0L would provide lot more umph.
Anyway these bellhousings bring $250 to $300 which is insane, but less than half as insane as the $700+ Quicktime bellhousing. And the bearing retainer hole exists and is all lined up so no shadetreeing like with bellhousing from an automatic. Have to think about it. Not like I am that thrilled with the 4.OL, just that it has lot life left in it. And its a hassle to swap in a non-original engine when the 4L seems up to the job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2015 15:55:36 GMT
I've has manual for most trucks but I like this automatic..but I had it overhauled when I did the engine rebuild...this one is not electronic..the set up with 355 gears is good...rpm is about 1700 at 60 in OD...four low gearing is good too..it has it's limitations but I don't abuse it.
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