1976 Buick 231 engine??

[hermitjohn]

Anybody remember these (its the odd fire version) and their weaknesses and longevity?  I have been really scratching my head how to economically put a granny four speed in my Ranger to replace clapped out OEM light duty 5spd.  Trying to adapt one to the Ford 4.0L or buying a GM 4.3L and converting it to carburetor, both not cheap.

Finally got to thinking about an old Olds Starfire with the Buick V6 in it that I bought at an auction long time ago.  Intended to put engine in an old Jeep, but never happened.  Got hood open and measured it.  Yep, think it would fit Ranger without any modifications other than welding up some custom engine mounts, its tiny bit wider than the 4.0L Ford V6, but still looks doable without much trouble.   Nice thing is it has Saginaw 4spd, looking up, they use same bellhousing as the 3spd GM transmissions so most likely a truck granny 4spd would bolt up too.  GM was very nice about making things interchangable.  Though worst come to worst, the Saginaw 4spd probably do ok, its light duty but apparently can handle upto a 2bbl chev 350, so ought to hold up in a Ranger.   Kinda small clutch, 9.125 inch,  they used a small clutch housing since the Starfire (H-body) was narrow compact car,  but not like I am going to do any heavy towing with Ranger.

Anyway, best I can remember when I bought it, had a cable clutch and the cable broke, thats why it was being sold.  They said it ran fine, but they didnt start it and neither did I.  Think I gave like $100 for it.   I looked and radiator is dry so assume either hole in hose or radiator or a freeze plug pushed out.  Or I might have drained it when I parked it just to be sure.  Its been sitting here for 20 years or so since I bought it.   I'd try lubing it up and running it in the Starfire to see compression and hot oil pressure before I bothered to pull it.  Dont think it would be worth rebuilding, just get a Chevy 4.3L and convert it to carb.

I never did drive a vehicle with a Buick V6.  The Jeep people liked them.  Now I owned a few Buick V8 that the V6 was based on.  Great gas mileage, but they had oiling problems until late 70s when GM finally solved the problem before discontinuing them.  However GM used the V6 for long time afterwards, though it was even fire and quite modified from the early odd fire V6s.  Not sure if odd fire V6 had same oiling problems as the V8 or not.  Nor when this problem was corrected.  This is a 1976 so might be late enough to have any oiling problem fixed.

[hermitjohn]

Guess the rear drive carb versions of this odd fire Buick engine went bye bye before the internet age. Best I could find on fuel mileage was some guy with a chevy luv that he had replaced original engine with an odd fire Buick 231 and TH350. Had rear end ratio of 3.27. Said he got 25mpg on long hiway trip. Course this would be less than 2500 pound vehicle, so... weight does matter.

So anyway should do about 20mpg hiway in 4000 pound vehicle with similar rear end ratio and manual transmission. Or so one might think if tuned properly. Really just not lot info on these. Some later even fire ones with automatic from factory in relatively heavy car, they were mentioning 16 to 18mpg.

Either way shouldnt be any worse mileage than the 16mpg I am getting with the Ford 4.0L. The cologne engines in any form just were never mileage champs. Best I can say is the 4.0L has pretty good power, about what you would expect in that size six cylinder engine. You can lug it a bit, but it really likes to be above 2000rpm.

[hermitjohn]

Well obviously the Buick engine, if it pans out, is cheapest since I already own it and own three old chevy granny four speed transmissions that would/should bolt up.

But cold day and been perusing Craigslist. Can get a usable Chevy 4.3L TPI engine for $200. TPI manifold means I could homemake a plate to put a carb on it, have to still buy a vacuum advance distributor. No doubt needs new rings and a good go through. Says it smokes a bit at first start up so that would be ring wear. Depend on cylinder and crank wear whether it needs true machine shop rebuild or just freshening.

Also found a Ford 289 V8, rebuilt but never used. Like $350. That was a head scratcher at such cheap price until I noticed its an old 5 bolt model from early 60s. Meaning you need to buy a $200 adapter plate to use a more modern transmission that has the butterfly bolt pattern. Still for a rebuilt V8, not bad deal, anymore you dont see rebuilt engines under $1000. The 289 was decent small V8, not really a truck engine, but enough power to work ok in a Ranger.

And that crazy RM-4060 bellhousing for $700 to put a granny four speed behind current 4.0L. I dont see spending that kind of money, plus I would have to buy a T18 Ford granny four speed. Think that aftermarket bellhousing be more chance of success than the rare Mustang II bellhousing which has right size bearing retainer alignment hole, but not the correct transmission bolt pattern for a T18.

Oh, I also have an old Chevy 305 carb engine. Guy many years ago gave me the old car in exchange for serious tune up on his old VW air cooled beetle. Knowing the guy, imagine its not great engine, though could be the auto transmission went out on it. He is kind guy that adds oil as needed (doesnt change it), drives them until they stop moving, then gets another. I dragged it home long ago, borrowed few parts off the car over the years, never tried starting it or doing compression check. Unfortunately its old enough to still use the two piece rear crank seal. I really hated trying to get old Chevy engines to stop leaking oil out the rear main seal. It seemed a never ending job.

[hermitjohn]

Always choices. Just located a $360 low mile 5spd for a 4.0L. Seriously considering the work involved transplanting engines, thats one of cheaper options. Plus I do know how to baby a manual transmission, seems lot people go out of their way to abuse them. It does mean always the running start to get up my driveway since I wont have a low low gear. Really really rather have a granny four spd or restore Ranger to 4wd so I can use low range on transfer case.

Suppose need to make choice soon, doubt it will last long. Good low mile 5spd for a 4.0L are not super plentiful, and ones out there tend to bring significantly more than that. that price is more like what the 5spd for the 4cyl sells for. These transmissions last much longer behind a 4cyl so lot more plentiful. Also people that got the 4.0L tended to get automatic.

[Deleted]

I would go with the four wheel option. Four low turns my truck into a beast that goes anywhere.

[hermitjohn]

Jan 21, 2016 1:50:05 GMT @elevenpoint said:

I would go with the four wheel option. Four low turns my truck into a beast that goes anywhere.

<abbr>Yes but stock parts in Ranger are light duty, those light duty parts guarantee its never going to be a "beast".   Always the conundrum, I really want a midsize or compact truck, but want it heavy duty.  That hasnt existed since 1950s or maybe Bronco/Scout in 1960s/70s.  In other words a compact half ton.  This Ranger comes close, has half ton rear axle, but they wimped out on the transmissions.

I have a 4wd F250 and an older Ranger that is 4wd that I put a 300-6 into.  Only bought this Ranger cause I didnt want to pull the engine in old Ranger last December to rebuild the custom oil pan that I couldnt get to stop leaking.  Almost wish I had put my energy in that direction... but this Ranger is lot more comfortable and handles nicer.  Dont necessarily need this Ranger to be 4wd though it would be handy, though probably get even lower fuel mileage.  My old carb F250 gets 13mpg on hiway, so 16mpg for this Ranger with 2wd is not impressive.   It has high ground clearance, thats the important thing.  The only real reason for it to have 4wd again is to get up my steep and very rough driveway without taking running start and without using chains in slick conditions.  Otherwise no reason in world for 4wd.  It isnt going offroading.  Its not going to haul firewood out of a forest, or slog through mud bog.  Its a grocery getter.  And just to drive it twice a month, I can put chains on it if no other way.  But dont want the running starts, want it to slowly climb the hill.  Hmm, suppose I could put like 4.11 or 4.56 rear axle in it and then first in the light duty five speed would work without running start, not a granny gear first, but low enough.  And gearing it like that would make 5th actually useful on hiway.

I am trying to replace current transmission as cheaply as possible, preferrably with a granny four speed.  But just no easy cheap way to mate one with this engine, Ford only sold their Cologne engines with light duty Mitsubishi/Mazda 5spd.  Or some really old Mustang II and Capri with 2.6 and 2.8L Cologne engine and even lighter duty four speed from Europe.  That specialty aftermarket bellhousing would be only easy way to do it.

I will in warmer weather test that Buick V6 since I own it, but parts availability is waning on those, so thinking the Chevy 4.3L is way to go.  They made them up to 2014 and made lot of them.  And spent lot time and money engineering bugs out of it.  They also seem pretty easy to convert to a carburetor and vacuum advance distributor.   Maybe last engine sold where that is possible.  Something again not easily doable on a Ford 4.0L, be all custom engineering to do a 4.0L.   I am trying to understand the computer fuel injection stuff, cause that is the modern car world,  but at heart, I want simple, not perpetual games of electronic whack a mole repairs.  Computer vehicles really dont age well and all the little important parts become obsolete.  4.3L  bolts up easily to any older GM transmission and I own 3 granny four speeds for GM.  I mentioned that $200 4.3L, but if I was truly serious I found a 38k mile one for $700.  That would be a lifetime engine for me.   And a granny four speed treated with some respect will outlast several trucks. Not too hard to rebuild either.  Though I suppose eventually we will get California type emissions inspections and they dont like shade tree, mix and match parts vehicles.  At that point probably should put antique car body or truck cab on Ranger chassis to exempt it.
</abbr>

[Deleted]

I think it's best to stick with one vehicle and go through it..at least you know what you have and just one is a handful. I went straight stock...nothing is altered or not oem type. I have a spare front and rest axle..transmission transfer case driveshaft. Finally found a bed off a 90..although mine is an 86 never found one without rear wheel well rot in the 80 to 86 range...the 90 bed was a take off a farmer had down the road for 150..same color too. Paint the truck in spring. Do like the AOD..1800 rpm at 65mph..had it overhauled in the beginning. Drop a ford racing traklok in the rear end and I'm done.

[hermitjohn]

You know, I dont think there is a vehicle out there that I truly like anymore in unaltered state. Like I say, I want a simple compact heavy duty vehicle with heavy duty manual transmission that doesnt rust at crazy rate. The old stuff is constant pain searching for rare parts (dont believe me, try finding a replacement manual transmission flywheel for that odd fire Buick V6...) plus they tend to be rust buckets. The newer stuff is complex, half plastic, and not heavy duty in way I want it heavy duty. Its just big and heavy, not heavy duty. Well unless you want some $60k monster computerized diesel truck and I think thats better left to the corporate fleet people.

Part of problem is that the older stuff was made for rural small farm use. Newer stuff is for work-slave commuter people in crowded urban/suburban environment. They want ability to go 90mph on freeway, they have no use for a slow shifting stump puller first gear. Heck most stuff now is AWD, not traditional part time 4wd. And nothing is manual transmission. I did an online search once for a Jeep dealer that had a Wrangler with the optional 6spd manual transmission ON THE LOT. Closest one was 2000 miles away in Brooklyn, NY and it had all the expensive shiny doodad options, wasnt a stripped down jeep with manual transmission. Yep, NYC, last place in world anybody really would want a manual transmission. All automatic again with every option imaginable, in Cowpie, Kansas.... Some real marketing geniuses out there.

Modern consumers really like their shiny computerized doodad options or else are really stupid to agree to pay extra for stuff they dont want.

[Deleted]

There was a new Expedition advertised this week for 68K...but you can save thousands if you act right now. I guess the AOD was an option on this truck and the a/c...no other options I am aware of. Would like to change to intermittent wipers but rain x washer fluid is good over 50mph. A/C shot last summer...new compressor...drier and evaporator...oil and Freon put it back factory new for $300. Going to paint it in the spring...myself so I can also touch up when need be...forest roads..rock roads..in the woods...not suitable for high dollar paint job.

[hermitjohn]

Oh boy, better getin line quick before somebody gets that bargain Expedition. Seriously, are there really people other than Donald Trump that would think that a bargain? Why do I have the feeling that thing probably weighs more than my old 4wd F250? F250 is a little over 6000 pound empty.

[Deleted]

Maybe priced per pound? However 0% financing for 84 months may lessen the pain...even though 0 % financing is a scam.

[hermitjohn]

Ok, took head off the Chevy straight six. I think its a 230 rather than a 250. It looks fairly decent, no rain water got into the cylinders. Its not perfect, but pretty good, and should run ok. I'd feel happier if it were recently run (its set about ten years outside under a tarp) and had hot idle oil pressure test and compression test. But I can either pay to have it freshly rebuilt or gamble bit of my time and labor to try it as is. Big thing is it requires very little additional purchase to install it in Ranger with a granny four speed. I will have to upgrade clutch linkage from modern Ford craptastic plastic internal slave, to aftermarket external aluminum slave from Wilwood. And weld new motor mounts and probably lengthen front half of driveshaft. The granny tranny is going to be shorter.

Have to buy new radiator whatever I do, current one is leaking at the seams.