THAT 'day' has finally arrrived: I'm a goat grandpa again!!!

[copperkid3]

I think I mentioned in an earlier thread, back in November 2015, that Molly was huge then and would likely be having twins.

Wasn't exactly sure of her due date, but the past couple weeks, have noticed that she was bagging up, so knew it had to

be soon.  Just went out to feed and check on everyone and heard the goats crying, but in a different way than just hunger

and as I got closer, I was certain that the sounds of a couple of newborns were also sprinkled in the midst.....

Of course, Molly wasn't around at the top of the hill near the feeder with the rest of the crew, so figured she must have

gone down to the old pig shelter to have some privacy and sure enough, she was inside and spaced evenly around her were

a red kid, a mixed red and white ...... and hang on to your hats boys & girls, but there was a third mostly white kid.....all covered

with goo and she was still expelling some afterbirth, so I'm wondering if there might even be another coming!!!  She's usually had

twins, but this is the first time that we've had triplets on the farm.  Which now makes me pause and consider what to do about it.

Molly is my oldest doe (actually the oldest period) and while she's always produced beautiful babies, the problem is trying to feed them.

She has sausages for tits; large and misshapen and almost impossible for a kid to get ahold of to nurse....what's usually happened in the

past, is that she may have them in a blinding snowstorm and they're dead and frozen by the time I get to them, or she rejects one or both

and then it dies or I have to become a surrogate and bottle feed them until they can be weaned asap.  Such is probably going to be the case

here as well, although I'm not in a very good position to bottle feed one, much less THREE!!!  Getting colostrum into them, is going to be the most

important thing at the present, after that, I guess it will be time to order another 25 # bag of Sav-A-Kid formula.  Either that, or advertise and sell them asap.
 

[Wendy]

You can do it!! I'm bottle feeding 8 right now & I do individual bottles. I just get 2 out at a time to feed them.

[shellymay]

copperkid3, Congrads and let us know how spoiling and raising three turns out  might bring these three indoors

for a few days

[copperkid3]

Jan 25, 2016 18:50:33 GMT shellymay said:

copperkid3 , Congrads and let us know how spoiling and raising three turns out  might bring these three indoors

for a few days

If I'm bottle-feeding, I ALWAYS bring them inside and put them into a deep sided, heavy-duty cardboard box.

As I've got to be heading into town today anyway to pay another bill, guess I'll be checking the dumpsters for a suitable "inside residence".

"Goats-in-a-box"......has a nice ring to it.  Now if I could just market it.... 

[mzgarden]

copperkid3, congrats, hopefully pics will follow.

[shellymay]

Jan 25, 2016 18:58:47 GMT copperkid3 said:

Jan 25, 2016 18:50:33 GMT shellymay said:

copperkid3 , Congrads and let us know how spoiling and raising three turns out  might bring these three indoors

for a few days

If I'm bottle-feeding, I ALWAYS bring them inside and put them into a deep sided, heavy-duty cardboard box.

As I've got to be heading into town today anyway to pay another bill, guess I'll be checking the dumpsters for a suitable "inside residence".

"Goats-in-a-box"......has a nice ring to it.  Now if I could just market it.... 

Sounds better like this...Goats in the bed, or Goats on the couch  Hint newborn diapers fit kids

[copperkid3]

Jan 25, 2016 19:29:35 GMT shellymay said:

Jan 25, 2016 18:58:47 GMT copperkid3 said:

If I'm bottle-feeding, I ALWAYS bring them inside and put them into a deep sided, heavy-duty cardboard box.

As I've got to be heading into town today anyway to pay another bill, guess I'll be checking the dumpsters for a suitable "inside residence".

"Goats-in-a-box"......has a nice ring to it.  Now if I could just market it.... 

Sounds better like this...Goats in the bed, or Goats on the couch  Hint newborn diapers fit kids

NOT going to happen... although we have had kids in diapers before when we first started out.....again, not going to happen.

But the Man with the Plan has come up with a solution that I think will work for all involved.  Had an empty stall just inside the

back door to the barn and after getting it set up, I went out to evaluate how Molly was doing with her new triplets.  Upon scooping

them all up in one big handful, discovered that we have 2 girls and a boy.  Which kinda surprised me, as in the past she's given me

mostly twin boys, but also a boy and a girl and last year just a girl....so I guess she's batting about the same, but put more into this pitch

then previous seasons.  Anyway, the kids are screaming bloody murder and Molly is calling out and following close at hand, as I figured.

Climbed over the bale of straw set at the entrance and set them down in back, and then watched and coached encouraging words to see

if fatso could navigate over the bale by herself.  She finally got the front half over and then looked to me as if: "Well?  Are you going to just

stand there laughing or are you going to help?!!!"  I found the laughing part was much easier to do and I guess she got tired of hearing it, as

she eventually pulled the other half up and over and went to check on her kids.  I'm still uncertain if ANY of them have been able to nurse, so

I'd best get busy and try and get something into them in the next couple hours.  One of them is definitely smaller than the others, but so far,

they all appear to have the same amount of vigor at this point.  Time will tell.

[copperkid3]

Well....now I'm stumped. Just returned from the barn after making up a batch of enriched formula (with powdered colostrum added)

and attempted giving some to each of the kids. The first showed the most enthusiasm, grabbing the nipple and taking about 4-5 quick

swallows and then refused anymore; actually spitting the nipple and formula out. The other two even less.... and then I began to wonder

if by chance, they had all been able to get some of mother's milk BEFORE I arrived on the scene. While their tummies weren't what I'd consider

full, they weren't thin like one would expect 5+ hrs from being born....so I guess it is possible. And would certainly explain the lack of enthusiasm

that I was seeing. All of them still wet to the touch, but considerably better cleaned off then what they were hours before. Provided Molly with an

entire bale of hay of her very own and closed everyone (ducks, guineas, geese and chickens) in for the night. I'll probably go down in a few more hours

to check on them again and take Molly a pail of water as well. I just am having a hard time believing it possible that she was able to finally get her kids

to nurse....maybe she's finally got the hang of it after all these years. I think she's around 8 or so. Almost time to retire in goat years.

[shellymay]

I hope it is all good news for Molly and kids, yay on the two girls and one boy.....okay so remember if you can hang the bucket so 
no kids can get into it and drown, hang up high enough that Molly can reach but that's it....So have you checked Molly's teats to see
if you can get milk out of them (both sides)?  I was worried when you said she has a track record of not raising all her kids that she
may have ended up with Mastitis in at least one side or the other as no kids emptying them the last few years. Just a thought to 
check them, good luck GRANDPA 

[countrymom22]

Congrats on the triplets! How exciting, and exhausting if you wind up bottle feeding, but well worth the effort.

Pics when you can please! Those of us who are goatless need a fix!

[copperkid3]

Went to check on them late last night, around 12:30AM and everyone seemed to be doing well, so I slept in

and just now got out to re-check on them. I heard a pitiful crying coming from the pen and on looking in,

saw that two were up and about, but the third was lying flat and being trampled on by the others. At first,

I thought he/she was dead, but then it raised it's head and cried again. I scooped it up and ran to the house

and placed it inside a cardboard box, while I heated up some of the formula, I'd prepared yesterday. Hopefully

we can get it into the little one in time and they come back around, but it will be touch and go here for awhile.

If it survives, it will have to be a bottle baby....and I've still got to check on the others to see how they're

doing as well. I could be back to square one, which isn't what I wanted to do, but ....it is what it is.

[shellymay]

Hope the little one pulls through and I know if it has a chance at all of making it you will be a good Sargent

parent....  

[copperkid3]

It's been over an hour now, and for the first 45 minutes, I managed to get perhaps an ounce down... in the last 5 minutes

she's taken nearly that much again; the suckling reflex is starting to kick in and I'm somewhat hopeful, but the shaking

and quivering continues, so I'm not sure how the outcome will be at this point. Trying to bring them back from the brink

is a challenge; the eyes aren't bouncing around and unfocused as they once were, but she's not out of the woods yet. It's

going to be a slow, long process.... and although I did get Molly watered and glanced to see that the other kids were up,

I really haven't had time to see if they have been able to get fed or not. It's just me, myself and I and that's really not enough to run this place.

[shellymay]

You can heat up a towel in micro or dryer and place on kid, also a little syrup on your finger and

then put in kids mouth will help some, but your right when they are to far gone not much works

if you can't get food in them.....

[copperkid3]

"Blondie" is doing much better, although still not out of the woods. Thanks for the suggestion on getting her

warmed up from the outside as well... I think it made a big difference. Although she wasn't as cold as some

that I've found in the past and brought back to life, she was somewhat chilled and the box that I'd placed her

in, was big enough for me to turn it onto its' side and then turn an electric space heater on facing the opening

from a couple feet away. She started moving around a bit after a half hour or so, and I tried feeding her again...

Not getting much in, but some is better than none and we take it slowly. Just tried again as she was attempting to

try standing, but unable to do so. She took a few swigs, but then tried to spit the nipple out and I continued to

try and get her to take more without much success. She's sitting/lying on my lap as I type this and seems to like

me stroking her, but won't look up much; just hangs her head down. Gave her mom (Molly) a better bale of alfalfa hay

and the other two kids are active and talking - not crying from lack of hunger, so I'm assuming that she's somehow feeding them.

Will continue the slow on again, off again feeding thru-out the rest of the night and hope for the best, as she continues to 'fight' the nipple.

I'm having to force it between her clamped jaws and she resists me pushing it in.  Have had to then squeeze some formula in,

which she then swallows, but after a couple times....that's enough; she wants no further part of this 'violence'. 

Some goats are just born more stubborn than others....

but this 'old goat' is even more so and we will continue on and prevail for the greater good; i.e. her survival.

This is the most improvement I've seen since bringing her inside. Will keep ya'll appraised if the situation changes.


E.T.A.  "Blondie" is what I had described yesterday, as the primarily 'white' kid....because they were all still wet and

covered in the remains of the afterbirth, it had looked like she was mostly white, but is in fact more of a palamino color

with an all white patch on her forehead and small white socks around the area of her rear toes.


Edit to the E.T.A.

It should be noted, that I almost never name my animals unless they are somehow attached to me, or if I think they have a chance at making it.

I hesitated with this one initially, but hope that I wasn't premature in this ritual.  Hopefully she won't be a dizzy air-head....but I have high hopes that she'll make it.

She's already taken nearly half of an 8 ounce bottle of forumula.....not counting the stuff that trickled down her mouth and onto my coveralls.

[shellymay]

How is her poop? is she having a bawl movement yet? The bottle lambs that I have raised that were all but dead when
I would pick them up out of field after a day of formula they seem to struggle to have that first poop and I had to add a little
corn oil to milk just enough to get them going for the first poop and then all was well after that. I ask so that you will look for
it if you haven't seen all ready, if she gets constipated she will refuse to eat because she can't relieve her self and it causes
pain, I wouldn't give anything until she goes 24 hrs of being inside with you and no bawl movement.....

I think her color sounds even better today, but blondie the name is perfect 

[shellymay]

Forgot to say

 She's sitting/lying on my lap as I type this

Oh yes body heat is good also 

[copperkid3]

Jan 27, 2016 0:41:43 GMT shellymay said:

How is her poop? is she having a bawl movement yet? The bottle lambs that I have raised that were all but dead when
I would pick them up out of field after a day of formula they seem to struggle to have that first poop and I had to add a little
corn oil to milk just enough to get them going for the first poop and then all was well after that. I ask so that you will look for
it if you haven't seen all ready, if she gets constipated she will refuse to eat because she can't relieve her self and it causes
pain, I wouldn't give anything until she goes 24 hrs of being inside with you and no bawl movement.....

I think her color sounds even better today, but blondie the name is perfect 

About an hour ago, I happened to notice that she had indeed had a bowel movement, although it wasn't like most newborns that I've

seen in the past; which are usually a red-yellowish color, that is associated with colostrum feeding.  This one was a mass of black berries

like kids on the 2 or 3rd day and thereafter have.  Also, there was a wet area near it and as she is still unable to get up onto her own feet

to stand and then squat .....she obviously peed while still spread-eagle in the box.  She has been lying across my lap stretched out fully and

breathing fairly normally, but when I try to get her interested in the bottle, it's nearly no-go; she just stoically stares straight ahead and clamps

her jaws tightly; refusing to take the nipple in her mouth.  Once in, then she acts like "we'll I'm not going to take anything out of THAT thing or

even try to swallow what comes out of it!"  Most of it just dribbles out the sides of her face & down onto my coveralls.  I'm kinda at a loss as to

what to do or where to go from here.  I'm not getting enough into her often enough to make any further difference it seems.   She is just stagnating at the present.

I just now decided she'd spent enough time on my lap, as I needed to get up and check on things, so I went to put her in her box and she started to cry

as I went to put her down.  She planted her 4 feet and was and is still standing .....so THAT is a good sign that she's regained some strength.  I seriously doubt

that she could manage to get up to all fours on her own though, but will keep an eye and let you know.  Now she has just squatted and let forth a gusher!!! 

Good thing I got her off my lap when I did I guess.....

[copperkid3]

Jan 27, 2016 1:01:16 GMT copperkid3 said:

Jan 27, 2016 0:41:43 GMT shellymay said:

How is her poop? is she having a bawl movement yet? The bottle lambs that I have raised that were all but dead when
I would pick them up out of field after a day of formula they seem to struggle to have that first poop and I had to add a little
corn oil to milk just enough to get them going for the first poop and then all was well after that. I ask so that you will look for
it if you haven't seen all ready, if she gets constipated she will refuse to eat because she can't relieve her self and it causes
pain, I wouldn't give anything until she goes 24 hrs of being inside with you and no bawl movement.....

I think her color sounds even better today, but blondie the name is perfect 

About an hour ago, I happened to notice that she had indeed had a bowel movement, although it wasn't like most newborns that I've

seen in the past; which are usually a red-yellowish color, that is associated with colostrum feeding.  This one was a mass of black berries

like kids on the 2 or 3rd day and thereafter have.  Also, there was a wet area near it and as she is still unable to get up onto her own feet

to stand and then squat .....she obviously peed while still spread-eagle in the box.  She has been lying across my lap stretched out fully and

breathing fairly normally, but when I try to get her interested in the bottle, it's nearly no-go; she just stoically stares straight ahead and clamps

her jaws tightly; refusing to take the nipple in her mouth.  Once in, then she acts like "we'll I'm not going to take anything out of THAT thing or

even try to swallow what comes out of it!"  Most of it just dribbles out the sides of her face & down onto my coveralls.  I'm kinda at a loss as to

what to do or where to go from here.  I'm not getting enough into her often enough to make any further difference it seems.   She is just stagnating at the present.

I just now decided she'd spent enough time on my lap, as I needed to get up and check on things, so I went to put her in her box and she started to cry

as I went to put her down.  She planted her 4 feet and was and is still standing .....so THAT is a good sign that she's regained some strength.  I seriously doubt

that she could manage to get up to all fours on her own though, but will keep an eye and let you know.  Now she has just squatted and let forth a gusher!!! 

Good thing I got her off my lap when I did I guess..... also noticed another mass of black goatie berries, so that makes 3 bowel movements I've noted, in the past hour or so.

She's now making that goatie small talk and when I went to pet her & told her what a good goatie she was.....the little flag in back started waving....ANOTHER GOOD SIGN!!!

I'm now starting to think that the reason she wasn't taking anymore in, was she needed to make room for it first.  I'll give it another hour and see if she's "hungry" again.

[shellymay]

Your wrong  .............if she is taking some even a tiny bit it is progress, remember she surely didn't get anything from
Molly and her little tummy shrunk and can't hold much, You might try the next bottle using pure colostrum powder just
make enough for about 4 oz, Her poop is black because the lack of colostrum......I think if you can try every two hours
to get her to take something every little bit helps and it may just get her pulled through this until she is ready to drink or
take more, I know you won't force her to take a bunch as that would be wrong and it would go straight to her lungs..........

Edit to say Yippy I knew you could do it........even tiny bits of milk is better then none or too much   keep up the good work!

[copperkid3]

Jan 27, 2016 1:14:37 GMT shellymay said:

Your wrong  .............if she is taking some even a tiny bit it is progress, remember she surely didn't get anything from
Molly and her little tummy shrunk and can't hold much, You might try the next bottle using pure colostrum powder just
make enough for about 4 oz, Her poop is black because the lack of colostrum......I think if you can try every two hours
to get her to take something every little bit helps and it may just get her pulled through this until she is ready to drink or
take more, I know you won't force her to take a bunch as that would be wrong and it would go straight to her lungs..........

Edit to say Yippy I knew you could do it........even tiny bits of milk is better then none or too much   keep up the good work!

Well.....DUH....here I go and mention that I've seen 3 signs of poop that don't look like the "normal" yellowish colostrum poop

and suddenly when you put it down in black & white, it simply screams out what I couldn't seem to begin to see for myself.

That's what I love about these forums..... you can get someone who's clinicly unattached, but has been there before you and

can help talk you thru it.  Guess I was too close to my patient to see the obvious.   Which probably means that she got NOTHING from Molly then....right?

I'm surprised that she made it thru the night then.  I'd always heard it said that if goat kids didn't get any colostrum within the

first 10-12 hrs after birth, that although they may survive into adulthood, that they are more susceptible to contracting various diseases, etc.

and may even be what one considers unthrifty?  We've always been able to get it in those others in the past, so I've got nothing to go on other

than this tale that sits inside my head and I'm feeling bad that I didn't pull her yesterday and.....but how was I to know?   Anyway, thanks for helping me focus again.

Would mixing a bit of honey in with the colostrum formula be a good idea or not?  And if so, how much?

[shellymay]

No the honey won't do much good now, I suggested the syrup earlier because it is a faster way of getting energy into them
and giving them a boost so they have the will to survive, right now giving more of the colostrum power mixed in the formula milk
power is best, not sure how your box set up is for night time when you go to bed and keep her in box, but it will be important to
put several old towels in box so that they can absorb her urine so she doesn't lay on wet cardboard through the night and get 
chilled all over again, if she is not getting up on her own by tomorrow I would suggest a shot of Bo-Se but If I remember right
meds aren't something that you have access to very easily?  Any how keeping her real warm/dry and feeding her as much as she will
tolerate on her own is all you can do, good luck and remember if it was meant to be it will....

I will be looking forward to hearing from you in the am......
 

[copperkid3]

She has been getting up several times already all by herself, but has now laid back down and will occasionally

give out a little whimper or small whinying when she hears me moving or something. Tried to interest her in

taking the bottle while in the box, but again, no, she wasn't interested. I'm truly amazed at what a little

heat and less than 4 ounces of fortified forumula has already accomplished. It's doubtful that either of us

will be getting much sleep tonight, although she's been doing a fair amount of resting already, but there'll

be none for me. Just have to pace myself...and hope for the best.  She's presently in an old banana box

that I've spread a few newspaper sheets across the bottom, but will take the suggestion of the old towels

to task and get her rearranged for the night shortly.

[shellymay]

That is a good sign that she bleats out to you when she hears you, she thinks you are mom now. Hope this

am she is doing better for you and glad to hear she is getting up on her own also, when you found her the

morning she was flat laid out and her siblings stepping on her made me nervous that there may have had

some damage done, these kind of things a person will never know but glad to hear she is getting up.

Every hour that goes by and she is still with you is a good sign, but remember without the nourishment of

the colostrum and going down hill and getting chilled sometimes I think it effect the brain and some babies

are a little slow at learning as a side effect, so I pray that she figures out the bottle and improves for you every

passing hour....looking forward to your morning update!

Edited to add, one thing I can tell you from my own experience is that a slow learner will never just latch onto

a nipple that is placed in front of them, what I do when first teaching a lamb to drink from bottle is.............

Sit down which I do on the floor, put lamb in a standing position (laying down is not good for them) back her up

so that her butt is touching your belly hold the bottle in one hand out in front of her (sometimes you will have to

open her mouth and insert the nipple) then with the other hand scratch just a little on her butt hip area, hence why

you need her backed up to your belly as she can't go anywhere because you belly is stopping her, if she spits out

the nipple repeat (and like you are already doing sometimes a small squeeze of bottle is needed to get some milk

into her mouth so she can relate the nipple to FOOD)

The scratching of the butt/hip area is mimicking what a Doe/Ewe does to encourage their babies to drink and believe

it or not it works, just do it gently....

Sometimes I have to feed the un-thrifty lambs like this for 2-3 days before they will just take it if I put the nipple in

front of their face....

[mzgarden]

copperkid3, Following this to learn and just wanted you to know I'm pulling for you and Blondie.
shellymay, Glad you're providing consistent information and suggestions. I'm learning a lot by 'eavesdropping.'

[copperkid3]

Well.....I guess I named her a bit too early. She's gone this morning. I was really feeling tired last night

around 12:30am and figured that she'd done so well earlier, that I could take a chance to catch a few winks....

About 20 minutes later....while I still couldn't quite get to sleep, I heard her bleat out a few times over the

space of 3-5 minutes and seriously considered getting up to see if she was hungry and wanted to try the bottle

THIS time, but .... I didn't. Now I'm thinking perhaps I should have. She looks so peaceful now... Why? WHY? WHY?

Gotta get down to the barn and check out the siblings.... I'm just not cut out for this adoptive parenting thing.

[shellymay]

Sorry for your loss

but you did what you could and sometimes the outcome isn't what we hoped for.....

We do have a rule around our farm though and that is 99.9 percent of ewes are not left to raise

triplets on their own, you do have a choice to completely PULL one of them and remove all together

from the area the mom and other siblings are located, OR if you have a stall or pen you can start from

minute one and supplement the babies while leaving them with the mother and just feeding some to

make up for what the mother can't produce fast enough for three, we all have different situations and

that is always important to remember as what works for one may not work for others.

In our case our farm where the sheep lamb out at is about 5 miles from the house, so it is easier for

me to pull one of the trips and bring home so that I can be close and there to feed and care for without

the travel time involved, they start out in the house and then graduate to a barn at the home site, I have

had as many as 30 bottle lambs at one time due to lambing in the bad snow one winter, but even without

the bad weather as I said anyone who has trips and we usually get many of these one will usually be pulled

and taken home.

[copperkid3]

For some inexplicable reason, Molly seems to be a better mother to the remaining kids, then I was as a surrogate.

They're both still alive and active....so OBVIOUSLY, she's managing to feed them somehow. SIMPLEY AMAZING!!!

The ONLY comfort I can take from all this right now, is that at least I helped give her an extra day on this earth

and she felt some love.... but from now on, I don't name any more of them, until at least a month's gone by.... 

I keep looking over at her lying so peacefully in her box and thinking: "She'll be waking up soon..."

[Deleted]

I'm so sorry! It always sucks to lose one. Ugh. You did the best you could. She was warm, comfortable and cared for in the end. Sometimes it's just not meant to be.

[shellymay]

copperkid3, Again I say don't beat yourself up, there still may have been more wrong then you are

aware of, as I said earlier the other kids (or Molly)  may have stepped on her tummy area or something that caused

some kind of internal damage that she just wouldn't/couldn't eat without pain, again one would never know. Accidents

happen and accidents are just that....(A accident) It may have all been stacked against you from the beginning!