Dog Psychologist?

[Calfkeeper]

We really need some insight into dog behaviour; specifically introducing a new dog into the family, and also some issues with the new dog as well.  (You can find a tongue-in-cheek blog entry I did in March 2015 HERE about Bella, our 1st dog. )

I'd appreciate any insights into our newest dog situation.  I am not much of a doggy person, so I am not sure how to handle this.

Bella, our Border Collie, will be 3 in January.  We got her to train to herd our cattle, and to have puppies.  (The only real reason to train her to actually herd was to be able to tell prospective puppy purchasers that they have a "working" parent.)   I tried training her to herd, but that was a spectacular failure.  Even with a DVD I have no idea what I am doing and she's super, super hyper...even yet.  A year ago in Nov we took her to a Border Collie breeder to have her bred, but she wasn't into that either; refused the male and after two weeks came back in the same innocent state we took her in. 

We figured we ought to just get a male, who would also be a companion.  Enter Deuce.

Hubby found him on Craig's List this weekend.  He lived in Branson.  Deuce will be 2 in November.  The man who owned him paid $300 for him when he was a pup.  He sold him to us for $50.  Owner bought him to herd goats, but never got goats, so the dog was pretty much just left in his kennel; wasn't trained at ALL to the leash, to sit, down....anything.  Owner raised Feists, had over 25 of them.  So Deuce was neglected.  Our dog is slender, but the vet said to keep her that way.  But Deuce is practically skin and bones.  And he is starved for affection.  He loves nothing better than to be hugged and petted. 

Here is where the hard part comes in.  We have their kennels next to each other.  But when we are out there petting them he becomes very aggressive toward Bella if he thinks she's getting any attention from us whatsoever; snarls and growls at her until she goes into her house.  He doesn't do that at all when they are alone; we have watched them interact through the fence when we aren't out there.

We would like to be able to put them in the same kennel eventually, for a time at least, and let them out together when we go on walks.   But how do we reassure him that he's loved too, so he isn't aggressive with her?  Do you think this behaviour will calm down a bit with time, will it escalate, or should we be doing something to actively discourage it?

Not sure.  Thanks for any suggestions.
Rebecca

[Maura]

You have two high energy dogs confined. This is going to bring out the worst in them. Working dogs were normally bred as some type of companion dog. They needed to stay fairly close to their humans in most instances. While guarding dogs live with the flock, herding dogs are only with the flock when the human allows them to be. So, your herding dog would be with the shepherd all day. At night he would either be with the family or alone (in a barn, for instance). Your dogs are alone most of the time.

Even if they are not going to herd cattle, sheep or goats, they can become good farm dogs. BTW, border collies are generally considered too soft for cattle. When you go out in the morning, bring them with you. If necessary, take them one at a time so they can be trained. Teach “leave it”. When you go out with the dog have him on a harness and long leash, 10, 15, or 20 foot according to your need. When he goes into a predatory crouch tell him “leave it” in a normal tone of voice and pull him away. Don’t be heavy handed, just pull him away until his attention is broken. Praise. Go back to work. If he shows no interest in livestock, put out things to practice leave it on. Bicycles are good as you don’t want them chasing kids on bikes.

I trained my dog myself, but I wish I had had a trainer to work with. Even so, my border collie turned into a good herder and was worth his weight in gold. If your dogs show herding behaviors and an interest in the sheep, look for a trainer. Not all collies have the gift, and if yours don’t, they will still make good farm dogs. They will stay close to home, but if left out all day will get into mischief and may start roaming. As long as you are home, and as long as you have the dogs trained to leave the livestock alone, you should eventually be able to trust them to be loose.

Border collies are very smart and have a strong work ethic. You need to work them at something. If you can train them to basic obedience (I suggest getting a book on clicker training) you can move them into agility, which they are excellent at. Find games they can play with your or your kids. If they will seek you can train them to find things. A frisbee under the bushes, a toy on the porch. This sort of game gives them mental stimulation, something they are getting none of while confined to a pen. Really, if you just work with them you won’t need a pen. In fact, at night I would bring them in the house. They will each need their own bed or mat, though they may sometimes cuddle together. Keep them off the furniture and have them sit nicely before opening the door.

If you are going to keep them in a pen you might as well rehome them.

[mollymckee]

I would see if my local library has any of Cesar Milans books or DVDs, or is on tv in your area. He often works wit high energy dogs. See if there is a dog training club near you that has classes. Here at least there are several and they do a much better job teaching than the big pet stores. Start with basic obedience, then decide what you would like to do. There are many different activities, obedience, rally, agility, fly ball, ect. Busy dogs are good dogs. The dogs might bond if you and your DH can work them together.

I would wait to breed the dogs. It will be easier to sell the puppies if you have well mannered parents around. I don't know what genetic testing they recommend for your bred, but i would see what my vet suggests.

[shellymay]

Sounds like Deuce has found a good home with you and Dh, Yes he needs weight put on and lots of attention for a while, I agree on the leash training and basic commands like sit and down and come when called, these can all be achieved pretty quick with healthy treats as a motivator but you must be firm when you ask and show him how to sit, make sure he does it before you give the treat   

At the same time your female needs love and attention, taking them out one at a time for this attention for now will be good, in the mean time I would be getting with your vet and talking to him about this and the possibility of the vet hooking you up with a VERY safe muzzle for Deuce because in a very short time you will want them out together burning off energy and bonding and enjoying doggie life together, Your female would be safer for a while if Deuce has a humane muzzle on, muzzles are only meant to be on while you are with him, also do not let him out with it on if you don't have a contained area, Deuce doesn't know where he is yet and doesn't know HIS property and you wouldn't want him to run off or get lost with a muzzle on, IF no secure fencing then maybe keep long lead on him while him and your female get to know each other....... 

[Deleted]

I would turn them in together and let them work it out. After the dust settles, just go and pet the one you want to pet and if the other interferes, just teach him/her who the leader of the pack really is. Bella has my money on her. But the problem needs to be addressed asap no matter what you do. Giving in to the newcomer for very long will only make it worse on him.

[Calfkeeper]

Maura, I totally agree; I'd get rid of them in a heartbeat if it were up to me. We have Holsteins on our dairy. We do not NEED herd dogs, my husband just wants them to be able to herd in order to sell pups. As for my part, I didn't want a dog in the first place, let alone a high energy breed like Border Collies. Unfortunately we have no secure fencing, and are maybe 100 ft from a 55 MPH highway. Bella, the female is one of those crazy, hyper types. She chases EVERYTHING. She'd be dead within 24 hrs if let loose to run, I am quite sure of it. I just cannot be out there with her constantly. We did try letting her loose for a time; and she constantly harassed the calves, when she wasn't chasing traffic. The breeders we took her to, who train dogs to herd professionally, keeps their 6 Border Collies in kennels half as large as ours, and work or walk them 1/2 hr a day each. So I feel she is OK; I make sure and get her out to run 'til she nearly drops most every day I possibly can.

I think Deuce is much, much calmer and when acclimated to us he will be easy to train. I just didn't have the strength to haul Bella around when I was trying to train her on the cattle. Maybe part of it was my attitude; but I worked with her for two weeks or more and we never got beyond sit and down, and even then she'd only go down when I stepped on the lead. Otherwise she'd keep lunging and nearly break my wrists and shoulders. My husband is no help; he won't bother to try and do any of the training himself. He's got lots of great ideas for me to try and do. Ha. I have no interest.

I am just trying not to be resentful of the situation and to do the best I can for these dogs; which I love, whether I wanted them or no.

And as far as getting rid of them, like I said, I would give them away in a heartbeat, but my husband registered them in our 9 yr old daughter's name and we couldn't break her heart now, could we? As she gets older and able to train them, SHE'S going to be the one in charge, but that's a whole 'nother story.

[Calfkeeper]

Thank you for all of your replies. When I get a chance I am going to try and respond to them all.

[Maura]

I’m not sure rehoming the dogs would break your daughter’s heart, especially if they were replaced with a dog that she could actually play with.