18qt roasters & cheese making

[comfortablynumb]

I had 4 gal of milk I was ready to toss to make room for the next 4 gal that will soon need room in the fridge so... I had an idea.

I'll make the Mozzarella in the roaster. Why not? More room, steady temp, maybe it'll be better.

It is. Much better. It takes longer since the thing heats up slower but that might be part of what makes it better.  The 4 gal batch came together and stretched out as good as it gets.  I'm impressed.

4 gal of (mostly) skimmed milk heated to 60F, add 2Tbs of citric acid (mixed in 1c hot water) and stir. At 88F turn off the heat and gently stir in 2tsp vegetable rennet (activated in a cup of warm water).  In about 30 min, cut the curd block up and turn the heat back on low, stir it once in a while while the temp gets up around 110-115.  As you stir, you'll see it all knit together in a loose ball of goo.

Since the roaster is bigger, I found I can use my hands at this stage instead of a spoon, and manipulate the goo ball as the whey temp rises. Once its around 110, you should be actively stretching and pulling a large ball of cheese the consistency of hot taffy.

It's best to break it up in 2 or 3 balls.... thats a lotta goo to handle all at once.

Use the roaster... who knew?

[feather]

Awesome! What a great idea.

[barefootfarmer]

I'm going to try this today. I've been putting off making mozzarella since last year(!) because I can never get mine to stretch. I'm pulling in so much milk right now from my Jersey girls and with a Holstein due in December I know I need to up my cheese making game. Cross your cheese stretching fingers for me...

[comfortablynumb]

Beware bad rennet... its the main cause of failures

[barefootfarmer]

Is there any way to know if it is bad? I have liquid animal rennet and it just says "store in refrigerator" with no date. Bought from cultures for health- I'm sure well over a year ago.

[barefootfarmer]

comfortablynumb, I followed your recipe and OMG I have mozzarella! I was ready to quit when it was at 110-112 in the roaster and all I was getting was a crumbly ball(s)But instead I cranked up the setting to the 300 mark and let it set. I checked back frequently and finally I could get a stretch. It just got better from there. Thankfully I had some gloves because I can handle the lower temps, but definitely not the higher ones. Then I plopped the balls into come ice water for a bit to firm up. I took it a step further because I wanted it a smidge salty. I used 3 quarts of the whey, dissolved 9 oz of kosher salt and transferred the chilled balls. After about 20 minutes- they tasted great!

I am so excited- now I'm going to have to make this a few more times before I can say "I can make mozz!" Thank you!

[comfortablynumb]

When it no longer does what it did when it came out right, and you didnt change the process I chalk it up to bad rennnet. When I get fresh, it works right again. I'm using vegetable rennet so maybe it gos bad faster. I dunno.

[feather]

I'm going to make a 4 gallon batch tonight.

I'm scared I'll ruin it through my lack of experience. Who wouldn't be. what will I lose? About $10 worth of milk, well, as a hobby, $10 won't make me miserable, I hope.

Please please don't take this as a criticism of anything, methods, amounts, any of it. I see this as an evolution of a recipe that comes from consistent hard-won experience, and I thank you for sharing that with us.

In your recipe, which I so appreciate comfortablynumb, it seems like if there is too much acid, then it might turn into a crumbly mass, is that correct?
In this recipe, 2016 you say, 2 Tablespoons citric acid to 4 gallons of milk (1 and 1/2 teaspoons per gallon.)
As a comparison, in the thread called '8 gallons', from 2015, you were using 3 Tablespoons of citric acid to a 3 gallon recipe. (1 tablespoon per gallon)

I take this difference between the 2016 and 2015 recipes, to be an improvement based on experience, correct?

MullersFarm, gives a recipe she has from Golden Rod Farm, and she says to use 1 and 1/4 teaspoons of citric acid per gallon of milk.

In your recipe you go from the curd stage, then heating to the stretching stage, and finished with salt or brine.
In the Golden Rod Recipe, after the curds are formed and set, they are drained and refrigerated. The next day, after developing some additional acidity, they are heated in a hot water solution, stretched, balled, brined and finished.

comfortablynumb, I also read your recipe on HearthandGardens.com and in that 2 gallon recipe you say to use 3 teaspoons=1 tablespoon of citric acid. (1 and 1/2 teaspoons per gallon) I believe this is where you share your revelation of the high acid, causing the crumbly texture. With the lower acid amount and high thermal mass of the tall stock pot you saw improvement. Which leads me to believing the roaster pan suggestion as a similarly high thermal mass situation that may work better.

So today, I'm nervous. And excited about mozzarella. I plan to use the roaster and I'm considering stretching it the next day. Then I'll give the whey a shot at making some ricotta as well. Signed, nervous nelly.

[comfortablynumb]

n your recipe, which I so appreciate comfortablynumb, it seems like if there is too much acid, then it might turn into a crumbly mass, is that correct?
In this recipe, 2016 you say, 2 Tablespoons citric acid to 4 gallons of milk (1 and 1/2 teaspoons per gallon.)
As a comparison, in the thread called '8 gallons', from 2015, you were using 3 Tablespoons of citric acid to a 3 gallon recipe. (1 tablespoon per gallon)

That was a typo I just corrected. Good catch. should be 4-4 1/2 tsp. If you want very dry crumbly cheese, yes add more acid. A great bulk of the Mozz blocks I made (probably close to 500#) used this base measure. A little too much acid and youll get tough dry but stretching cheeese. A bit too much more and it will turn to grainy dry crumbles.

I take this difference between the 2016 and 2015 recipes, to be an improvement based on experience, correct?

nope... mistake in posting .  sorry bout that.

MullersFarm, gives a recipe she has from Golden Rod Farm, and she says to use 1 and 1/4 teaspoons of citric acid per gallon of milk.

That works, if you want very soft mozz. I need it to be dryer so it takes well to freezing. Traditional mozz is very moist and soft. I have blocks I have done that to and once they defrost they ooze and spread out like warm taffy. Edible and tasty but a bit of a pain to slice or use.

The acid level is directly proportional to how dry/tough the cheese ends up. MF is right, if you want traditional texture.
Aslo the milk itself is a huge factor..... calcium levels effect the outcome too.

In your recipe you go from the curd stage, then heating to the stretching stage, and finished with salt or brine.
In the Golden Rod Recipe, after the curds are formed and set, they are drained and refrigerated. The next day, after developing some additional acidity, they are heated in a hot water solution, stretched, balled, brined and finished.

You could do it that way. I didn't have time to do it that way with all that milk coming in every morn and eve. Youd have to try it.

comfortablynumb, I also read your recipe on HearthandGardens.com and in that 2 gallon recipe you say to use 3 teaspoons=1 tablespoon of citric acid. (1 and 1/2 teaspoons per gallon) I believe this is where you share your revelation of the high acid, causing the crumbly texture. With the lower acid amount and high thermal mass of the tall stock pot you saw improvement. Which leads me to believing the roaster pan suggestion as a similarly high thermal mass situation that may work better.

Making what I called "mozzfail" required higher acid, and intentionally stirring the curd as it sets to keep it broken up so you end up with grainy somewhat  dry cheese. This kind freezed and thaws well. It is essentially a quick mexican Cotija cheese.... that melts easier than proper Cotija.

The thermal mass of the roaster seemed to help the cheese form better but the acid level was still the same for mozz that has the texture similar to provalone. Just enough for a brick to remain an brick and slice easy and for the slices not to stick to each other. (kinda like american cheese does).

Lower acid is going to make you traditional soft wet mozz. A little more acid you'll end up with a dryer tougher mozz, like string cheese. A little more and youll end up with an unstreachable semi solid mass that if you drop in a bowl and chill will end up being hard and dry that will shred and melt fine.  A little more acid, you'll end up with Cotija.... cheese sand. LOL.

So today, I'm nervous. And excited about mozzarella. I plan to use the roaster and I'm considering stretching it the next day. Then I'll give the whey a shot at making some ricotta as well. Signed, nervous nelly.

You might wanna stick to one gallon pots. An accidental failure is easier to take that way. LOL

[comfortablynumb]

I've been just making bricks of Queso Blanco lately and freezing them. It freezes well, doesn't melt and is like using very firm tofu. I make everything from fritters to corn muffins with it.

And its easy and idiot proof.... there is no way I can screw up Mexican bathtub cheese.  Bring 3 gal of milk to a boil, turn it off stir in 1 1/2 cups of white vinegar, leave it set 30 minutes or so, dump it in a mesh bag and press it out.

One big easy wheel of.... cheese.  I set the bag on the drainboard, put a big cutting board on it and set a 3 gallon bucket of water on it. Once it stops oozing (about 30 min) its a firm cool wheel of versatile white cheese.

[feather]

Thank you for all that information, and the correction, and the whys! Thank you for encouraging my experiment, lol.
I was sitting here waiting for my milk to warm, thinking no one cares. Now I feel like willow and you are sitting there, in spirit, hoping for the best for my cheese.

The reason or reasoning I'm using for doing a 4 gallon batch is that, when you are experimenting (like making soap), a larger batch has less of a chance of failure due to measurements, than a small batch. Since I live in America's Dairyland, I'm going for the 4 gallon batch.

I did buy fresh vegetable rennet, so, I'm kind of excited about all this.

I'll report back later but I'll be stretching it tomorrow. I saw a youtube video, and the chef making the motz, claimed that he had to heat the water slowly (surrounding the cut refrigerated day old curd), tempering as he went (so as not to scorch the curd) from warm up to 170 degrees F, to 'cook' the curd. He worked it until smooth soft shiny. He said that if he didn't make sure the curd was shiny, soft, without lumps, it was possible to end up with good motz on the outside of the balls, but a chewy uncooked curd in the inside of the balls. I'm going to give that a shot tomorrow.

[comfortablynumb]

I dunno... when it works, it works very well. I found no need to leave it set.

Once the rennet has set the curd and you cut it, I heat it slowly back up to 100-120 and all things being equal, as you slowly stir it you see it transform into a mass of stringy cheese. Lift the thing you stir it with up out of the pot (I use a spaghetti fork) and it will be like lifting melted bubble gum. Once it does that, you play with it until its a workable ball, dropping it back in the whey to warm it up.

I have pics somewhere....

[comfortablynumb]

Here..

[comfortablynumb]

vid9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/nyquilljunkie/goooo_zpsgumyeqbj.mp4

[feather]

In the first link you gave, do you see how you have it smoothly and shiny-ly being pulled up through the hot liquid? It is in about a 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch smooth sheets, a non lumpy mass, completely smooth. CN the chef.

Here is the youtube where he does that too. He doesn't show the cheese from start to finish. He only shows where it is a smooth and shiny sheet before forming the balls.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7p25YJQk0

My stirring in the rennet at 88 degrees F, went to a thick mass, almost within 15 seconds, showing a clean break right away, then it sunk to the bottom. I let it sit 45 minutes, no heat, then cut, then let it sit 15 minutes, then pulled it out with a slotted spoon. It looks grainy and like ricotta, draining it in a cloth, over a colander, in a pan.

This will go in the refrigerator. I'm going to pull out some ricotta from the whey. Add some cream, salt, and then sleep.

ETA: As it worked out, there was little to nothing left to get any ricotta from the whey. I brought it up to 170 degrees F, added (wasted) the rennet at 1/2 tsp/gallon, and nothing really to show for it. So since it was hot, i grabbed 1/3 cup of the curds. I soaked them in the hot whey. Started to melt it, or get it ready to stretch. At first, it stretched with a little bit of rough sand texture, then less sand texture, more hot whey, less sand texture and better smooth silky texture. So I added a little salt, heated it and pulled it and made it into a ball and then a patty. It tasted milky and lovely, the texture was smooth and excellent. DS tasted it, all good, then I tasted it again, all good. So decided to melt a little in the microwave to see if it would melt nicely for pizza. Excellent, stringy, smooth. I think the rest of the curds will work out nicely tomorrow. I'm happy about it. I appreciate all the experience we have here.

[feather]

So here is my recipe.

4 gallons whole milk (in the 18 qt roaster, almost too full)
2 Tablespoons citric acid in 6 oz distilled water, removing 1 T of dissolved citric/water
(slightly less than 1 and 1/2 teaspoons per gallon).
2 teaspoons of vegetable rennet in 4 oz distilled water.

Heat the milk to 60 degrees F, add the citric/water solution.
Bring the heat up to 88 degrees F, stir in the rennet/water for 30 seconds.
Turn off heat, let sit for 30-45 minutes, cut in 1 inch grid. (this was difficult as the curd went towards the bottom of the pan and all I could see was the clear whey)
Let sit an additional 15 minutes.
Remove curd which had big chunks and the rest was like ricotta in texture with slotted spoon to cloth/colander/kettle, let sit to drain for 1 hour.
Refrigerate.

The next morning.
Boil a large kettle of water.
Prepare a brine of 6 oz of salt in 2 quarts of water.
Place a large bowl in sink.
Prepare containers for cheese.
Prepare clean plastic/latex gloves.

Plopped half the curd into the bowl, with half cool and half boiling water.
Break it up so it all gets warm and let it knit together using a slotted spoon.
Pour off half the warm water, add more boiling water.
Put on gloves, work the curd until it begins to stretch instead of break.
When it begins to stretch, there are bits that are not smooth, but as I worked it, the bits began to incorporate and become stretchy too, until it was one big mass.
I often found myself with half stretched out cheese, dipping it back in the hot water, and continuing to stretch it, fold it over, stretch it the other way.
It was very hot, I worked 1/4 the curd at a time, so half of what was in the bowl.
I considered it stretched when I could stretch it to 12 inches. (can't really see stretching it 4 feet, as seen in some videos)
Make it into a smooth ball, drop it in the salt and water brine.
Worked the second quarter of curd.
Repeat with the second half of curd, adding boiling water as needed.
Let the mozzarella sit in the salt brine for 10 minutes.
Plopped the balls of mozzarella into the containers. Weighed out at 4 lbs total.
Ate some.
Refrigerate.
Do the dishes.

I'm not sure if I should shred it before freezing (as we will use it for pizza), or freeze it and then shred it. It's holding its own shape, neither oozing into a flat pancake, nor tough so far.

I am very happy. I feel like a small child that just finished her first page of addition tables. Quite proud. ha ha

Thank you comfortablynumb , for your help and recipes. I couldn't have done it without that!

[solargeek]

comfortablynumb, feather, Thanks to you both for being so generous with your time and cheese making talents!

[comfortablynumb]

Yes when it gets to this texture it will stretch as far as you can reach. I stretch it out about 2' or more, double it over, dunk it in the hot whey and do it again. After a few dozen stretch fold pulls, its a very nice smooth texture. If you stretch it out thin and spiral it around a pizza pan, you can chill it and make string cheese sticks. The more you do this the firmer and dryer it will get as it works out the milk.

Also, whole milk that is fatty will make greasy cheese.  The more fat you can remove the better it will form a firm shape once chilled.

Looks like you did a fine job!

[feather]

comfortablynumb, When I made the mozza, I used 4 gallons of whole milk. If I make it again, this time with 4 gallons of skim milk, where will I notice a difference? In the curd forming, or in the stretching? Will the texture be different?

DH liked the cheese and he is a big fan of the string cheese, and I admired the last picture you posted.

I was doing some reading, and found a source that said that when stretching the cheese, you should stretch consistently in the same direction. I was doing the opposite, stretching it one way, then stretching it at a 90 degree angle, which didn't help things, as it broke more often that way. I would guess stretching in the same direction would help more with string development.

[comfortablynumb]

It'll just not be as greasy/moist/soft. It'll be more like string cheese if you skim the milk.

My skim milk is more like 2% since its skimmed by hand so.... might wanna try 2% not skim.

[feather]

Nov 15, 2016 2:01:30 GMT comfortablynumb said:

It'll just not be as greasy/moist/soft. It'll be more like string cheese if you skim the milk.

My skim milk is more like 2% since its skimmed by hand so.... might wanna try 2% not skim.

Okay then, next time it will be 2% if I can get it at the cheap milk store. I'm enjoying this mozza making too much.

Have you ever used a thermophilic culture for any kind of cheese?

[comfortablynumb]

No I was just looking for something to do with 40+ gal of milk a week. LOL
Its quick it freezes well. I'm easy to please.

[feather]

I had a failure with my next 3 gallon batch = 3 lbs. 3 lbs of ricotta, I added enough salt and MY GOSH!!! This is the best tasting ricotta ever. I've bought ricotta, it's grainy and dry and I hate it. This stuff tastes like heaven. So I made some lasagna with it, it is lovely. This must be like REAL RICOTTA. I love it. So I'll make it again, mozzarella or ricotta, doesn't matter, it's a lovely cheese. I'll go again at it, but I will start next with other cheeses.

I have a mold now and a couple cheese followers, measuring the temperatures and humidity in the basement pantry, and most likely I'll find a wine refrigerator to get the temp and humidity right.

[barefootfarmer]

feather, I'm going to start making hard cheese in a few weeks. I'm waiting for my Holstein to calve- it's going to be either cheese heaven or a total mess over here. I've been gathering up all my supplies so I'll have no excuses for not starting. Wine fridge is my choice, too.

[feather]

Dec 6, 2016 20:18:45 GMT barefootfarmer said:

feather , I'm going to start making hard cheese in a few weeks. I'm waiting for my Holstein to calve- it's going to be either cheese heaven or a total mess over here. I've been gathering up all my supplies so I'll have no excuses for not starting. Wine fridge is my choice, too.

Oh so glad I'm not alone on this journey. I'm aiming at a wine fridge on craigslist because they seem like a viable option. Otherwise I'll be running down to the basement pantry, adjusting the temp in winter with a screened window, and adjusting humidity, aiming for 52 degrees F and high humidity.

I'm going to try to get the cheeses that we use a lot of, cheddar, colby, motz, and havarti (something plain and creamy, good melting). I love a lot of strong flavored cheeses like bleu cheese, those might just be 'take a chance' type cheeses, as all of these will be just for our family. Milk prices are at an all time low lately, here at least.

I went to the 'cheese making forums' out there and the one thing that seems to make all the difference in aging cheeses, is sanitizing the equipment, religiously to avoid the pitfalls of bad mold. What do they say, "Cleanliness is next to Godliness"? I'm going to give it my best shot.

Let's aim for cheese heaven because cheese hell sounds a little moldy and smelly. (no offense moldy, I like you.)

[comfortablynumb]

Yes even when you mess it up, its still cheese.... of some sort.
lol

[feather]

I'm still using my roaster for 4 gallon batches of milk for cheese. I really like that it heats the milk slowly and I don't have to run a double boiler to get it done.

Yesterday I made some mozzarella, with some lipase culture, to give it a little kick in the flavor. Here is the video recipe I used. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VbuBcNCgAc

Ingredients:
4 gallons store bought whole milk (not ultra pasteurized)

(T = tablespoon, t = teaspoon)
At 55 degrees F add these three ingredients:
2 T citric acid in 1/2 cup boiled cooled water
1 t calcium chloride in 1/4 cup boiled cool water (only for store bought milk, not raw)
1/2 t lipase in 1/4 cup boiled cool water

At 90 degrees F add the rennet:
2 t rennet or 1 t double rennet in 1/4 cup boiled cooled water

Use the recipe for methods in the video. Use 1 T + 1 t cheese salt (this needs to be a salt without iodine or anti caking agents in it).

It turned out pretty good and I'm hoping the taste is just a little kicked up with the lipase powder. Although the lipase powder is not required, it is the type of culture that is used in parmesan and romano, and I love that flavor.

This is the first time I made this cheese using the microwave method instead of heating up the whey to bring the temperature up. It worked. I also have a mess that travels from the roaster and sink, over to the microwave, and back, messy but faster.