hoof question

[mzgarden]

We were doing the 6 week hoof trim on our buck and his companion wether.  The wether has an area along the outside of one hoof where the hoof wall is separating from the pad.  Looked like it had pasture mud/dirt in the pocket.  We cleaned it out with the hook and soaked it with iodine.  There was no pus, no goo, no smell and he's not limping.

The particulars:
The boys are 2 yo and we've had them since bottle babies.  They get an annual CD&T and copper bolus 4x a year (last two were Oct 2016 and Jan 2017).  They have goat minerals, baking soda and hay plus the pasture year round.  In rut, the buck gets grain, but we stopped that last October.

Questions:
Is this the start of foot rot?
Is this likely due to damp pasture (spring weather) or a nutritional gap.
Do I need to retreat with iodine every day?
Should I trim the hoof wall all the way up until there is no pocket in one sitting- even if that's fairly high up (I don't know it will be, just asking in
   or trim the wall every couple of days until we get to no pocket?

Thoughts?

[here to stay]

Likely yes to foot root, yes to damp pasture, no to daily iodine- once every week is more than enough for iodine- it's harsh, yes to trimming up to good hoof.

If there is a pocket (not attached to foot) it is dead and is only trapping dirt which will not allow the laminae to heal. At least so says my vet who cleaned up one of my girls feet last month.

Uh oh @redfish, I posted simultaneously with  different opinion.   I let my girl go last year thinking I had cleared it up but the separation continued under the what looked to be good hoof wall.  But disconnection had grown almost to the top of the hoof by the time I got really worried about it.  So now I'm pretty paranoid about it.

[here to stay]

Maybe it is better called white line disease. The inner, between the toes wall is sound. It was the outside that formed a pocket. On both front feet. And it did not smell. I think it is caused by a fungus rather than a bacteria.

[Bear Foot Farm]

I'd use Copper Sulfate instead of Iodine.
Wrapping it to keep out the dirt will help too.

[mzgarden]

@redfish, here to stay, Bear Foot Farm, thanks everybody for giving your perspective and experiences. I'll take another look tomorrow and decide about next steps. Differing opinions are not a problem for me. You all offer them with respect for each other and I recognize everyone's goats, environments, etc. are different. All perspective is gladly accepted.

Thanks again.

[shellymay]

Gonna have to agree with @redfish, here......Trim it up past the pocket as this will prevent more dirt ect from being trapped in the future, This is very common in our older bigger breeding rams, they are big and their feet match and all their weight on feet in wet conditions does cause some outside wall separation, like you said mzgarden, they show no signs of pain or discomfort, there is no smell or puss or anything.....not rot! 

FYI, there is a PERMANENT cure for REAL hoof rot in sheep/goats but it is pricey....Zactran is a permanent cure, you will very seldom have to give a second dose, first dose cures permanently  

[mzgarden]

shellymay, never heard of Zactran. Looked it up and it is pretty pricey but wondering about it, just in case.
Looks like it's of course off label for goats/sheep and intended use for BRD in cattle. The dosage is SubQ and tiny - 2ml/110#.

It's to treat foot rot, not prevent -- right?
Is it used in goats to treat anything other than foot rot?
Any idea what the typical expiration dates are on it?

I can't afford it, but should I get a windfall and it's multi-use it might go on a long wish list.

[shellymay]

mzgarden,  I will check my bottle and get back with you on the expiration date.......cure or prevent? darn good question.....We fall lambed some ewes out one year and that year we had tons of fall rains and the grass was so tall that the lambs got scald between their tiny hooves....we treated them with everything under the sun, sulfate hoof baths, iodine, formaldehyde, hoof heal nothing worked PERMANENTLY across the board for all.......during this we also bush hogged several times trying to control the height of the pastures, but after the rains slowed the morning dew was a factor....

They say that rot gets into your soil and stays in soil for years and this can be picked up by other sheep/animals that run the same pastures........So how does one prevent other sheep from picking it up from soil.......I learned this from Dr. Kennedy from Pipestone Vet (the Zactran) seems I believe Australia sheep farmers discovered it first. So yes we bought $1500.00 dollars worth and treated EVERYONE and it worked and no reoccurrences, When we trim feet on everyone (talking a couple hundred sheep) I do keep some in stock at home because when you spend ALL day trimming feet one after the other you are bound to trim to much off several and make them bleed on accident, if this happens I give them the Zactran because I don't need them picking something up out in pastures and ending up with rot because I cut them to deep during trimming allowing a open exposed to the elements area on their hoof....So yes we treated sheep that didn't have hoof rot that year and they have never ended up with it so I guess one could say it is a preventative, but unless you have a first case of rot I wouldn't go out and buy it, but if the first case shows up yes I would and I would treat everyone on property.....

I can say that my vet does keep this in their inventory (for cows) and they know that it works for hoof rot in sheep/goat and WILL SELL someone a loaded dose in a syringe if they only wanted to treat one animal, or they will sell you 5 loaded dose's if you had five animals  then a person wouldn't have to buy a big bottle and worry about the expiration running out.....

But the dose for a 150 lb ewe is 4cc and for a animal like our breeding rams they range anywhere between 200-300 lbs they get 5cc, the dose is always different from what cattle get compared to sheep/goat   Also we administer in the neck of animal.....

I have recommended this to many people who ask me how to rid of rot, they say their animals have it so bad that the animal is eating on its front knee's or that the animal won't walk because rot is so bad, it has cured them all with just one dose......I suppose if someone found an animal that had rot in 2-3 feet/hooves they might have to give a second dose 10 days later? never ran across anyone yet that one dose didn't cure it.......

10 days, that brings up a good point, this is like a no other meds, this stays in their system for 10 days and keeps working on the bacterial that causes rot in hooves, just simply amazing and IT WORKS to cure it not hide/cover up/temporary bandaid....cure!

It won't do anything for your wall separation, all you can do there is trim like was posted, and let it grow back out on your goatie and hopefully all will be well  

 

[mzgarden]

The update - we took another look at both boy's feet. Where they had pockets from the hoof wall separating - we trimmed a half circle up the wall to eliminate the pocket. Cleaned it well with the hoof pick - only mud was in the pocket - no smell, no goo, hoofs were not hot and they didn't care we were poking around. After trimming, we scrubbed it down again with a brush and soapy water. Sprayed with iodine after trimming. We are getting more rain today and all day tomorrow, so the pasture will remain wet. It's not a muddy bog by any means, it's well covered with spring grasses and it has some high areas that are much drier than low areas. Their shelters, hay feeder and water are on the drier parts and are elevated on platforms. I only share this to confirm they are not in a mud pit paddock, it's just alot of spring rain has occurred. Waiting on a call back from the vet to see if they sell dose volume of the Zactran.

Thanks to everyone for weighing in. Hope we caught this before there's infection.

[mzgarden]

shellymay, sorry to keep coming back but..... my vet does not keep Zactran but offered Draxxin as an alternative. Valley Vet offers both, but the Draxxin Tulathromycin appears to be more expensive. From your personal experience and knowledge, is one better than the other treating goat foot rot?

Thanks again.

[here to stay]

If there was no smell or discharge, are you sure it is bacterial hoof rot? If not, then antibiotics will not help.

What my girls have is a separation of the hoof wall from the underlying structures. This is white line disease rather than real bacterial hoof.

[mzgarden]

here to stay, you're right, there is no smell or discharge so I don't believe it's hoof rot, yet...... I am exploring Zactran and now Draxxin as a 'just in case' learning. At this point, I don't plan to give them an antibiotic but I want to make sure I know what to get and where to get it, if this advances.

You mention white line disease - which I thought was an equine issue. Never heard anyone say goats get it.
Now that we've trimmed the pocket and cleaned it up with the hoof pick & iodine -- would Blue Kote (gentian violet) be something we should be using? If yes, how often?

As always, I very much appreciate everyone helping.

[Bear Foot Farm]

would Blue Kote (gentian violet) be something we should be using?

Kopertox would be better for hoof treatments:
www.drugs.com/vet/kopertox.html

Some also use Copper Sulfate in foot baths:
www.coppersulfatecrystals.com/footbath.html

[here to stay]

I used coppertox weekly for awhile but then stopped because I thought the hoof wall was growing fine. It did grow_ all the way to the ground-  but did not attach to the foot. One day I went to trim back to good attachment and was shocked to find how high up I had to go. So i'm not going to claim I have the remedy.

I would say trimming more often than I did might have prevented the problem from getting so bad.

[shellymay]

mzgarden, Sorry I am just now getting back to you.....My bottle says USE within 18 months of first puncture, so I guess there is a expiration based on when you draw the first dose from bottle? Along with a expiration date on bottle for an unopened bottle, which mine expires end of 2017...weird not sure how to interpret that...


I have no experience with the Draxxin, but it was not ever discussed when Doc Kennedy made us sheep and goats folks aware of Zactran, if it cost more then the Zactran then I wouldn't spend the extra dollars if you purchase outside of your vet, but for the convenience of buy ONE DOSE if you need it I would print out the active ingredients OF BOTH and compare them drug for drug, if indeed it is all the same JUST different TRADE names, I would go with the Draxxin then, my advice that I have given you here is based on what I HAVE learned and USED on my farm and I and many others are proof it works, I don't know anyone who has used Draxxin.......

mzgarden, you did right by trimming your goats roof ( the one with the wall separation) That is it, that is all he needs, no worries it will grow back out....  

[mzgarden]

@redfish,here to stay,Bear Foot Farm,shellymay,
wanted to say thank you to everyone. Our boys' feet are much improved, even though we continue to get rain. We trimmed, cleaned and treated with a Thrush squirt on with copper. Almost immediate improvements. As long as it rains, we'll continue to check every other day and treat any remaining areas of separation.

Thank you for your insights and suggestions.

[Bear Foot Farm]

Glad to hear he's improving