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Post by feather on Jul 26, 2017 20:51:00 GMT
A couple things I could use advice on. 1. Good place to buy the regular and wide mouth lids. 2. I have had a few failures, the epoxy on the lids, disintegrates and fails on the jar. I don't know if this is because the lid was old, or I just got a bad batch. Epoxy failure meaning, it crumbs up, comes off during processing, putting a red epoxy crumb along the edges inside and out.
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Post by northerngardener on Jul 26, 2017 23:09:18 GMT
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Post by feather on Jul 26, 2017 23:26:26 GMT
Lids, all the way from Canada....still even with shipping not a bad price. Thanks! Yeah, I've been canning on and off for 30 plus years, and I sort and throw out nicked, broken, bent, rusty canning lids. I buy some new every year but try to reuse ones that still have good epoxy. This crumbing epoxy was red, crumbley and I've never seen lids do this before. They looked healthy when I put them on the jars, and disintegrated after processing. So far this afternoon, I can't find better prices than Mill's Fleet Farm, they aren't on sale but they run $1.75 and $2.44, for reg and wide respectively.
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Post by comfortablynumb on Jul 27, 2017 3:25:34 GMT
I just got some on amazon... free 2 day shipping, $2.18 a doz for Ball brand lids, and 2 doz lids&rings for $12.98. (I needed some new rings so... thats $6.50 a doz for lid/rings.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 5:57:55 GMT
12 Lids at Winco $1.36 narrow /$1.98 wide (Ball brand $1.44 / $2.09
12 Lids with Rings $2.68 / $3.93
....James
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Post by paquebot on Jul 27, 2017 19:15:31 GMT
Those Benardin lids would be $1.81 per dozen. If your local Walmart has Kerr lids, they are $1.63 per dozen. Ball are $2.18 and Mainstay are $1.32.
Martin
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Post by feather on Jul 28, 2017 18:51:06 GMT
This is a picture of the lid after processing (failure).
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Post by feather on Jul 28, 2017 19:17:13 GMT
Yes if it was a first time, but it wasn't. I often reuse lightly used lids, if they are still shiny, the groove from the previous use is not deep, sometimes used with dry goods.
So far I've only come across 6 of these lids failing in this way. Out of a hundred.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 28, 2017 20:31:51 GMT
I'm confused. Lids were used a second time and failed? Lids are not intended to be used again. They have always been designed for only a single heat cycle when they were originally latex-based and now when they are plastisol. I am using #63 lids which may be 40 years old or more with no failures as long as they were stored properly over the years.
Martin
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Post by feather on Jul 28, 2017 20:39:29 GMT
Well, they may fail, and I use them more than once, or have in the past, but this failure was not like other failures. I've never seen one go to crumbs.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 28, 2017 22:57:31 GMT
I have had the sealant come apart on some jars of pickles that were canned 20-30 years ago but nothing since. If one is bent on reusing lids and not wanting to invest in Tattlers, go with plastisol-lined caps similar to what all commercial canners use. It's amazing what's available and not made by the monster Jarden company. Everything on the link below can be used for home canning. with or without the button. Plastisol doesn't melt until it's 177ºC and readily returns to its original form under normal canning heat. I've some caps that I've probably used 4 or 5 times, mainly for salsa and similar products. www.fillmorecontainer.com/G70-CT-Black-Plastisol-Canning-Lid-P269.aspxMartin
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Post by feather on Jul 29, 2017 0:54:44 GMT
paquebot,Ricky, 'splain this to me. Ball and Kerr use plastisol on their lids. The two piece lids are made in the same plants as the Jardin lids (ball/kerr). www.freshpreserving.com/canning-lids-101.htmlThis is about ball jar lids using plastisol. The two piece lids, as you said are only recommended to be used for one time. I read through the website you listed, and couldn't find anything saying you can use the one piece Fillmore lids more than one time. What makes you believe you can use them more than once, the one piece lids, but I can't, using the two piece lids? Edumacate me on why. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Lucy
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Post by feather on Jul 29, 2017 1:03:35 GMT
Maybe I found the answer to why the disintegrated lid, fell apart in crumbs. Doesn't it look like latex paint? When you've got an old can of latex paint, and you open it, and it crumbs off at the edges of the paint can?
I got a batch of lids, from a friend at work, her aunt had died and left canning stuff to throw out or sell or whatever. It is possible, these were from 1969 or before. The price tags on them were like 12 or 13 cents, and they could have just been that old.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 29, 2017 3:31:26 GMT
paquebot ,Ricky, 'splain this to me. Ball and Kerr use plastisol on their lids. The two piece lids are made in the same plants as the Jardin lids (ball/kerr). www.freshpreserving.com/canning-lids-101.htmlThis is about ball jar lids using plastisol. The two piece lids, as you said are only recommended to be used for one time. I read through the website you listed, and couldn't find anything saying you can use the one piece Fillmore lids more than one time. What makes you believe you can use them more than once, the one piece lids, but I can't, using the two piece lids? Edumacate me on why. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Lucy No company not involved in home canning will ever make any claim for re-using their products as they do not carry liability insurance to cover any potential injury. Everyone's favorite 24-ounce canning jar has been Classico for many years and that jar is still in production. Classico will not advise using it. That clears them from any potential insurance claim. Other sauce companies will tell you the same about their jars with the lug threads. Anyone think that it's odd that you can buy those jars and caps new for canning? I can use those jars and don't have to buy caps since they are 63mm and I have a supply of #63 flats. All I need is a used 63mm lug cap to hold the flat in place while canning. All sauce jars on the store shelves have been through a pressure canner process and quite capable of doing it again. As for difference between Jarden's sealant and commercial plastisol, there obviously are different formulas as they are entirely different in appearance and other properties. Jarden's claim of everything being plastisol for almost 50 years, since 1969, is strange since the Plastisol company was formed in 1973. (Yes, they could have had a different source of PVC but it was not plastisol.) The company has a hard time covering some information. They say to not use jars not intended for hone canning since they are either not treated the same or can not withstand so many heat cycles. They then turn around and say the same exact thing about their own jars. There recently was a discussion of new time guarantee somewhere. Some of their jar lid packaging guaranteed a seal for up to one year; Kerr, yes, Ball, no. Now they say 18 months. Then take a look at Ball and Kerr wide mouth boxes. On the back of my box of Ball's, very last line is: "Lids are for one-time use only." On Kerr boxes, it's the very first line. Confusing, eh? But why? Nobody has ever explained why those claims are made other than from an interest in selling more. It's not the sealant, it's the metal. Many times I have had a used flat for something else and pushed the center down and it stayed down. That would be metal fatigue and one reason for not re-using a flat, especially if it's been on a jar for some time. A second is damage to the flat when it's removed. Most people use the back of a butter knife or similar to apply pressure at one point along the edge. The lid is no longer flat at that point. It may appear flat but it has been bent once and the molecules remember. That does not happen when removing a cap lid. Remember that life is a big picture and there is more to see when viewed on wide-screen. And this is just serving as an introduction! Martin
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Post by paquebot on Jul 29, 2017 4:02:17 GMT
Maybe I found the answer to why the disintegrated lid, fell apart in crumbs. Doesn't it look like latex paint? When you've got an old can of latex paint, and you open it, and it crumbs off at the edges of the paint can? I got a batch of lids, from a friend at work, her aunt had died and left canning stuff to throw out or sell or whatever. It is possible, these were from 1969 or before. The price tags on them were like 12 or 13 cents, and they could have just been that old. I do not believe that age alone was the factor but how they were stored. I've quite a collection of what forum members have found and sent. For instance, try to date a box of #63 rings and flats which are pre-bar code and still perfect. Red sealant just like always with Ball. Seldom received a bad Kerr #63 but there's been a number or Ball and Bernardin where the sealant is checked and will easily come off with a fingernail. Most of those also have signs of rust spackling so moisture and mildew have been working on them for years. Never saw that on an old Kerr flat with gray rather than red sealant. Martin
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Post by Skandi on Jul 29, 2017 9:58:18 GMT
I can't comment on that type of lid as they don't exist here. If you want to buy new jars and lids then they are twist off what martin is calling a cap lid I believe. Most people look at you very strangely for buying new though. (I had to buy mine from Germany) I found that reusing old jars and lids I lost 1-2 every time as they didn't seal (but those that did then stayed sealed fine) but even with lids reused many times I have never seen the inside come away like that, it does look like the sealent has perished much like an old rubber band.
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Post by dustawaits on Jul 29, 2017 13:16:21 GMT
I have always reused my lids as did my Mother. I get 2-4 uses out of my flats. i check them carefully and discard any with bad rubber/sealer , warp or crimp. As far as the commercial one piece caps that come on food in glass jars in the store... I get many years use out of them . I check them just as carefully as I do the flats.
I got a survey from Ball or Kerr a few years ago asking about how I used the flats. Did I reuse the flats more than once? Yes Why ? Cost and because they were still good.
If you are going to can on low income you must need to count your pennies...
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Post by comfortablynumb on Jul 29, 2017 20:13:28 GMT
I'm not sure saving @ 18 cents a jar is worth risking a bad seal.
I reuse good lids but I'm not comfortable reusing them to actually process food a second time with.
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Post by hermitjohn on Aug 19, 2017 22:10:47 GMT
I just got some on amazon... free 2 day shipping, $2.18 a doz for Ball brand lids, and 2 doz lids&rings for $12.98. (I needed some new rings so... thats $6.50 a doz for lid/rings. Ok, glad you posted as I didnt see them. They are now $13.52 for 24 rings/lids. But only other similar price was 12 Empire brand rings/lids for $6 shipped on ebay. Never heard of that brand. Might be fine, might even be made by Ball, but for six cents difference per ring-lid unit, not worth the gamble. I swear I was shocked by some of prices out there, many were over $1 per ring-lid unit. How do you save any money paying that kind of a price? 56cents is bad enough, should be half that. Yet another Rip Van Winkle moment. Been asleep 20 years.
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Post by Mari-in-IN on Aug 19, 2017 23:11:27 GMT
I just got some on amazon... free 2 day shipping, $2.18 a doz for Ball brand lids, and 2 doz lids&rings for $12.98. (I needed some new rings so... thats $6.50 a doz for lid/rings. Ok, glad you posted as I didnt see them. They are now $13.52 for 24 rings/lids. But only other similar price was 12 Empire brand rings/lids for $6 shipped on ebay. Never heard of that brand. Might be fine, might even be made by Ball, but for six cents difference per ring-lid unit, not worth the gamble. I swear I was shocked by some of prices out there, many were over $1 per ring-lid unit. How do you save any money paying that kind of a price? 56cents is bad enough, should be half that. Yet another Rip Van Winkle moment. Been asleep 20 years. Last year we bought some Empire lids from Menards. Thank goodness we didn't go totally wild and only bought about 8 boxes or so. I'm definitely not using them for canning due to the fact every single box contains lids that have a noticeable crease (?) on the seal. Not as deep as if they were previously used for canning - but - reminds me of the last time I bought canning jars and instead of having the lids/bands in a separate box - they were instead screwed down tight on the canning jars!? Nope, not buying that brand again... Just my little 'ole 2 centavos... ~Mari
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Post by paquebot on Aug 20, 2017 14:00:57 GMT
Fully assembled is the only way that I've seen cases in well over 10 years. Jarden was the first to go that way and Anchor Hocking followed. Although I have found them "sealed", never impressed deep enough to cause a problem. Haven't seen an Empire case but suspect that they use the same type of machinery.
Martin
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Post by Ozarks Tom on Aug 20, 2017 20:34:01 GMT
Our empties, new & old, are stored out in the machine shed. The new jars with rings & lids you can hear "popping" as the days heat and cool. We throw the lids away, they've sealed and unsealed probably hundreds of times. They might be fine, but canning is too much work to bet on "maybe".
We never buy ring/lid combos, as we store all our jars without rings. We take the rings off the day after canning to wash them. If there's a failure to seal properly, but still pulled down, we'll find it then after gently testing each lid.
Our biggest disappointment in canning supplies was getting a deal on "Golden Harvest" at Big Lots. The first pressure canning 3 out of 7 popped their bottoms in the canner, the next batch 2 our of 7. We'll use them for water bath canning, but not pressure canning.
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Post by comfortablynumb on Aug 22, 2017 1:24:46 GMT
I got lids the other day at wal mart for 2.15 a doz.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 22, 2017 20:40:57 GMT
Got regular lids today at WalMart, $1.32, Mainstay. Had no trouble with them when they were made in China, expect the same from these made in USA.
Martin
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Post by comfortablynumb on Aug 22, 2017 22:27:33 GMT
I saw those... I hesitated because I dunno who makes mainstay.
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Post by comfortablynumb on Aug 22, 2017 23:05:08 GMT
And the google says....
Brand Mainstays Manufacturer Part Number MS14-520-031-01 Manufacturer HEARTHMARK LLC JARDEN HOME
©2014 Hearthmark, LLC d/b/a Jarden Home Brands. All Rights Reserved. Hearthmark, LLC is a subsidiary of Newell Brands (NYSE: NWL).
and Ball®, TMs Ball Corporation, used under license.
So... They are one would assume all the same from the same plant. I also read that Golden Harvest lids are made in the same Jarden plants at ball lids. The Balls have white coating, the GH lids have a clear coat.
So... mainstays ball golden harvest... same lids.
Kerr, also listed as Manufacturer Part Number 7061000588 Manufacturer HEARTHMARK LLC JARDEN HOME Brands.
Its like the dang lawnmowers... all brands lead back to Elecrolux.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 23, 2017 0:17:04 GMT
comfortablynumb,you got it! It all leads back to Ball! Years ago during the Depression, cheaper Drey jars showed up. Everything exactly the same except the embossing. Nobody cared about who made what then as long as there was a good product. When Ball was interviewed years later, he was asked about Drey and confirmed that they were his! In the late-60s or early-70s, there was a shortage of lids up here but there was supposedly a company making them in the SE. Truckers were being asked to bring back cases if they could find them. For the life of me I can not remember the brand or if they even had a name. Until new recent brands, I've never seen any lids other than Ball, Bernardin, Gardeners Kitchen, or Kerr. Martin
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Post by here to stay on Aug 23, 2017 0:56:43 GMT
I had some odd ball lids by Presto(?) at one time. They were used with glass inserts and rubber rings- sort of like old versions if tattlers now I think (having never usedvtattlers.) I still have one somewhere that I put on an antique jar that's just decoration. For a while I collected every odd canning jar I ran across.
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Post by Ozarks Tom on Aug 23, 2017 1:19:46 GMT
We've bought an enormous number of Tattlers, mainly because we're preppers and don't expect Ball/Kerr lids to be available when we might need more. We've probably canned 100+ quarts with them, and after the learning curve are very happy with them. The differences between Tattlers and Ball/Kerr are you don't tighten them down as much initially, but when you take them out, you tighten the rings down securely. The next day, take the rings off and they're sealed perfectly.
The fact they're indefinitely reusable was our attraction to them. Yeah, they're pricey, but doing the math over the long run makes them very cost effective.
We had some 6 year old (hidden behind some pickles) pork stew tonight capped with a Tattler, tasty.
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Post by comfortablynumb on Aug 23, 2017 1:25:46 GMT
I'm sure, the cheaper the lid the cheaper the production used. I'm looking at a couple brands in my lid box, and the ball & Kerr branded ones are thicker, coated, with thicker sealant. The cheaper GH and no name ones are clear coated tin that is thinner.
I'll err on the side of caution and buy the ball branded ones. They seem to me to be.... better.
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