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Post by wildhorseluvr on Aug 23, 2017 1:31:29 GMT
I had some odd ball lids by Presto(?) at one time. They were used with glass inserts and rubber rings- sort of like old versions if tattlers now I think (having never usedvtattlers.) I still have one somewhere that I put on an antique jar that's just decoration. For a while I collected every odd canning jar I ran across. That sounds like some of the same lids & rubber rings I have.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 23, 2017 2:28:46 GMT
I had some odd ball lids by Presto(?) at one time. They were used with glass inserts and rubber rings- sort of like old versions if tattlers now I think (having never usedvtattlers.) I still have one somewhere that I put on an antique jar that's just decoration. For a while I collected every odd canning jar I ran across. That sounds like some of the same lids & rubber rings I have. All of the glass tops took a rubber ring. They are still available and still work. They also can be used over and over. Older ones from over 100 years ago might start to check or crack after awhile but they they'd just be used for pickles. Newer ones would last as long as Tattlers due to modern compounds used. Martin
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Post by paquebot on Aug 23, 2017 2:45:51 GMT
I'm sure, the cheaper the lid the cheaper the production used. I'm looking at a couple brands in my lid box, and the ball & Kerr branded ones are thicker, coated, with thicker sealant. The cheaper GH and no name ones are clear coated tin that is thinner. I'll err on the side of caution and buy the ball branded ones. They seem to me to be.... better. Get out your scales and mic. Ball and Mainstay weight exactly the same. The insides are also identical coating and sealant. There was a heated discussion about that in HT one time and one member used a micrometer to shoot down the witch. Proved that all newer flats were better quality than 15-20 years ago. Martin
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Post by comfortablynumb on Aug 23, 2017 13:25:51 GMT
I'll have to go find that thread.... good to know!
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Post by paquebot on Aug 24, 2017 1:19:55 GMT
If one really stops to think of everything, every lid currently on the market is top grade. It's top since there is no second. Since we're dealing with food, it had better be safe or the USDA is going to say something. Another is that Jarden already is at rock bottom in how much they can tweak to make a cent and still produce a safe product. The factories which produce the "generic" lids don't maintain 2 separate material inventories and 2 separate manufacturing lines. When switching from Ball or Kerr to Mainstay, all that has to be done is turn off the printer. Changing coil stock, dies, and sealant compound take time and that's money. WalMart presented a figure that they would pay for Jarden to take over the Mainstay lid production. Jarden would have countered with a figure that they need to make a profit. Unless the lines are already running 24/7, there's room for more production. Jarden may only end up with 1% profit but still money in the bank after only production costs.
Martin
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Post by hermitjohn on Aug 28, 2017 23:39:03 GMT
Does Dollar General sell flats? Somebody told me they sold canning jars. Be lot more convenient as there is one in the little town close to me. Flats dont seem much of a bargain online.
I did look online and my local Wallyswart is supposed to have Kerr regular flats in stock for $1.43, but not Ball. Heaven knows where they hide them as I dont think I have ever seen canning supplies in that store. Lot longer drive unless I am headed to Aldi for groceries anyway.
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Post by hermitjohn on Aug 28, 2017 23:55:08 GMT
comfortablynumb,you got it! It all leads back to Ball! Years ago during the Depression, cheaper Drey jars showed up. Everything exactly the same except the embossing. Nobody cared about who made what then as long as there was a good product. When Ball was interviewed years later, he was asked about Drey and confirmed that they were his! In the late-60s or early-70s, there was a shortage of lids up here but there was supposedly a company making them in the SE. Truckers were being asked to bring back cases if they could find them. For the life of me I can not remember the brand or if they even had a name. Until new recent brands, I've never seen any lids other than Ball, Bernardin, Gardeners Kitchen, or Kerr. Martin Lids used to be sold under Atlas brand. Probably some others. I know some odd brands popped up for brief period in 70s, then disappeared. Atlas jars just as good as Ball or Kerr. It used to be the third major brand I think. Back when it wasnt just one company licensing a bunch of old traditional brand names. Yes, have seen some Drey jars. Some other names too, though they escape me now.
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Post by comfortablynumb on Aug 30, 2017 15:05:08 GMT
Oh wal mart put the jars on the endcap, and the supplies 4 rows from it in a section where you wouldnt think they would be. I found that pretty annoying.
The dollar gen here sells golden harvest lids and jars but only for a limited time in the mid summer.
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Post by hermitjohn on Aug 30, 2017 22:46:47 GMT
Oh wal mart put the jars on the endcap, and the supplies 4 rows from it in a section where you wouldnt think they would be. I found that pretty annoying. The dollar gen here sells golden harvest lids and jars but only for a limited time in the mid summer. I did a google and somebody said their Wally put jars and lids back with the plastic storage boxes for clothes?? I know that means another dang Easter egg hunt. Bad enough they have to move stuff around every once in a while and its huge store. Oh well, have to go Friday to little local town to get propane tank filled for cooking. Can look at DG for lids. If not then wait until I go to Aldi and stop and do the Easter egg hunt at W for lids.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 31, 2017 3:02:46 GMT
Oh wal mart put the jars on the endcap, and the supplies 4 rows from it in a section where you wouldnt think they would be. I found that pretty annoying. The dollar gen here sells golden harvest lids and jars but only for a limited time in the mid summer. I did a google and somebody said their Wally put jars and lids back with the plastic storage boxes for clothes?? I know that means another dang Easter egg hunt. Bad enough they have to move stuff around every once in a while and its huge store. Oh well, have to go Friday to little local town to get propane tank filled for cooking. Can look at DG for lids. If not then wait until I go to Aldi and stop and do the Easter egg hunt at W for lids. Interesting! Our original WalMart had the canning supplies in the same spot for at least 30 years and near the garden center. Super Center hasn't moved them in the 4 or 5 years that they've been here and in housewares. Currently have pints on one end display and half-pints on another. One of those has always been jars from day one. Probably based on demand. If nobody is buying them, no reason to have them taking up shelf space. (HyVee also stocks them all year.) Martin
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Post by hermitjohn on Sept 6, 2017 17:48:56 GMT
Exciting day. But on topic, I stopped at Wallyswart. Actually found a bright lad in a blue vest that knew where canning lids were. By look on his face, think he had been asked before so was proud that he knew what I was talking about. They were back buried in the third row of plastic boxes. No pint jars left. The boxes of either Mainstay or Kerr with both rings and flats were higher than I got the Ball rings and flats off Amazon. However Mainstay flats were $1.23 and Kerr flats were like $2.18 despite what Walmart.com said they were at my store. They looked identical except the Mainstay flats had no writing on them. Said made in USA on box and think paquebot said they are now made by same Jardan company.
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Post by dustawaits on Sept 6, 2017 19:21:23 GMT
Walmart has alway finangled the companies they buy from. I for one do not believe the mainstay lids are the same. People canning with them don't think so either. When you are canning 200 lbs of tomatoes at a time and the only lids that pop loose are the Mainstays...... tomatoes are just one vegetable/fruit being canned now.
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Post by hermitjohn on Sept 6, 2017 21:23:51 GMT
Walmart has alway finangled the companies they buy from. I for one do not believe the mainstay lids are the same. People canning with them don't think so either. When you are canning 200 lbs of tomatoes at a time and the only lids that pop loose are the Mainstays...... tomatoes are just one vegetable/fruit being canned now. Way I understand, Mainstay lids used to be made in China and now are now made in USA by Jarden, the company that makes Ball and Kerr lids. So which Mainstay lids did you have problem with, the China lids or the Jarden lids? And hey, I am no fan of Walmart, rather avoid them, but they are anymore the only half way convenient local source of lot items. And I havent canned with the Mainstay yet, so all I can say is they look identical to me, other than Kerr lids having Kerr written on them. Oh and for what its worth, the Ball lids from Amazon also look identical to Kerr and Mainstay lids, just have Ball written on them.
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Post by paquebot on Sept 6, 2017 22:39:54 GMT
When Mainstay were originally introduced on the American market, they were produced in China. I bought several boxes just to see what problems some others were reporting. Saw nothing wrong with the quality. Used them in pressure canner with no hint of a failure. What was being reported was creasing or buckling. That's a problem that can happen to any Ball or Kerr lid as well. Do an Internet search for buckled canning lids and you'll find out why following directions is important in canning. "Tighten lids only finger-tight."
Martin
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Post by feather on Sept 6, 2017 22:44:26 GMT
Do an Internet search for buckled canning lids and you'll find out why following directions is important in canning. "Tighten lids only finger-tight." Martin Yes, this happens to me at least once every year. I think I'm the strongest woman alive and have to prove it by tightening a jar lid, very tight. Then the canning lid buckles and I feel very satisfied with myself.
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Post by lindym on Sept 7, 2017 4:12:34 GMT
Do an Internet search for buckled canning lids and you'll find out why following directions is important in canning. "Tighten lids only finger-tight." Martin So here is my issue: I'm a 65yo woman with a lousy right thumb - how tight is "Tighten lids only finger-tight."? DH and I just canned up the last of the peaches (we are new at this) and part of my job was putting on the flats and rings. We did water bath and one of the 14 jars blow out the bottom. We were careful putting the jars is and I don't think it was from jars knocking together.
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Post by paquebot on Sept 7, 2017 5:28:30 GMT
lindym, How tight? I'd say snug. Then one could ask how snug. I don't think that we need to have someone invent a torque wrench for home canners. I'd say to turn the ring until it stops and then you stop. All the ring is needed for at that point is to keep the lid in place without allowing water in or product out. Product expands so excess pressure must be able to get out. If not, lid becomes a metal balloon which can't stretch. Despite the bottoms having the thickest glass, that's also the most vulnerable. Glass expands or contracts when heated or cooled. Different thicknesses do that at different rates. Many such bottom failures are cold jars into hot water. That's why instructions are often to pack hot product into hot jars. (Bad thumb? On 13 July, 1976, took 3½ hours to re-attach my right one!) Martin
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Post by dustawaits on Sept 7, 2017 16:03:58 GMT
I have not seen a buckled or creased lid😁. That was not the problem. Following direction on the lid box was! Only by boiling the lids did mainstay stay on the jar.
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Post by feather on Sept 7, 2017 16:19:49 GMT
I have not seen a buckled or creased lid😁. That was not the problem. Following direction on the lid box was! Only by boiling the lids did mainstay stay on the jar. Yeah, I can see where you might be upset with this, since, they've changed the directions and DON'T require anyone to boil lids, only to get them warm. When I say 'them', the lid makers and there are different ones and different directions which may cause confusion and mishaps.
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Post by paquebot on Sept 7, 2017 20:10:19 GMT
Again there is more to the picture than most are seeing. No lids of any brand ever needed boiling other than to sterilize them. They do not get any less hot if you used them right out of the box. BWB heats them to 212ºF on the jar which is the same temperature as if in a sauce pan. (PC heats them to 240ºF.) Amazing that it's taken all these years for the instructions to catch up with reality.
Martin
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Post by lindym on Sept 8, 2017 1:40:53 GMT
lindym , How tight? I'd say snug. Then one could ask how snug. I don't think that we need to have someone invent a torque wrench for home canners. I'd say to turn the ring until it stops and then you stop. All the ring is needed for at that point is to keep the lid in place without allowing water in or product out. Product expands so excess pressure must be able to get out. If not, lid becomes a metal balloon which can't stretch. Despite the bottoms having the thickest glass, that's also the most vulnerable. Glass expands or contracts when heated or cooled. Different thicknesses do that at different rates. Many such bottom failures are cold jars into hot water. That's why instructions are often to pack hot product into hot jars. (Bad thumb? On 13 July, 1976, took 3½ hours to re-attach my right one!) Martin Yeah, DH snugging a ring would mean I couldn't probably loosen it, lol. My right thumb got pulled backwards, Orthopedic Dr wanted to do surgery immediately, I had things going on and he said I would always have a weak thumb with a large lump whether I had surgery or not. I chose not. It works its just not very strong.
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Post by hermitjohn on Sept 9, 2017 6:38:46 GMT
I canned few pint last evening with the Mainstay lids. Didnt notice any difference, all sealed without boiling lids or anything.
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Post by oxankle on Nov 1, 2017 17:06:37 GMT
Guys: I gave away about ten cases of jars, some with lids, when I left OK. Little did I know. Bought a case at a "discounts" grocery, $10+, the shrink-wrapped, lids-on kind. Got a lead on a bunch of pints from a lady who no longer cans. About what I need for chow chow--quarts of chow-chow are a bit much.
Next summer will be another story.
Martin; Glad to read your account of the plastisol lids. We regularly get jars that would be useful but I throw them away because they will not accept a standard canning lid. If the plastisol seals can be used again there is not reason I cannot keep the jar and lid.
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Post by paquebot on Nov 1, 2017 20:18:54 GMT
Ox, when you get a jar with a lug cap, keep them together. Although the bulk of they are 63mm, there's always some odd size that's only a couple mm difference. To complication things, there's two different lug patterns. So, always store the lid and jar together.
There's even little annoying differences in what appears to be normal thread. For example, every canner probably saves the plastic caps that come on peanut butter jars. Those on Jif are 70mm while those on Skippy are 72. As far as I know, Skippy is the only one that has to be difficult for some reason.
Martin
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Post by oxankle on Nov 3, 2017 20:59:33 GMT
LOL, Martin; I made that discovery yesterday afternoon. The lady gave me some jars, most ordinary pint canning jars, but a couple of pretty preserve jars from the store with nice lids. I ran them all thru the dishwasher and was preparing to boil the lids when I noticed that one of them had "weed killer" marked on top with black marker. That one did not make the cut, and no other lid fit the jar. The jars were clean and empty, but I did not trust that lid.
One nice thing about the box of jars; a a dozen unopened rings/lids, two boxes of lid.
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