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Maggie
Sept 5, 2016 12:21:13 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 5, 2016 12:21:13 GMT
As most know, Maggie's been dealing with Cushings (which is under control with meds), IR(seems to be under control with meds and special feed) and founder.
No matter what I do, she still walking stiffly. She has special padded boots, been toughening up the soles of her hooves. Liniment and so on, to help with the sore muscles. Have had xrays, no rotation. She did have white line separation but even that is healing.
Farrier says, she is acting like she expects to hurt... not that she is. He is good at what he does and works with the Vet hospitals in the area for special needs hoof care.
Started her on Hot Hoof II from the Vet, she also gets Icelandic Kelp for micro nutrients. I know it takes a long, long time for a really damaged hoof to heal.
Maggie is my heart horse, we have done so much together. Think she is 20 years old now. She still wants her food, still wants attention. Keeping her at a perfect weight.
I am gimpy too, can only hobble along with a cane. Limited walk times.
So on one hand, it might be kinder to let her go, on the other hand, I want to give her every chance to heal. Seriously torn.
If it was any of my other animals, I would do what needed to be done. But with Maggie.....
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 5, 2016 12:38:47 GMT
I would give her time to figure out that it doesn't hurt any longer. I just had a similar situation with one of my mares, only it was her neck. She is a 10 yr old, off the track Thoroughbred. A few weeks back she injured her left hind hoof, and she was hospitalized for 10 days. When I went to pick her up, she neck flexed well to the right, but not at all to the left. Since she has had issues in the past with being out on the at side, I had my vet adjust her. He popped a couple of spots, and she visibly relaxed in her face, but was still Leary of flexing to the left. My vet offered her a cookie...on her left side near her withers. She flexed just fine to get the cookie! But without a cookie, she wouldn't flex at all on that side. Vet said she is worried that it will hurt her if she flexes.
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Maggie
Sept 5, 2016 12:56:02 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 5, 2016 12:56:02 GMT
Sorry you had to go through that. It is good to know it could be she is just expecting pain and I hope she pulls through like your mare did. Thank you Connor.
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Post by here to stay on Sept 5, 2016 13:10:37 GMT
It's a hard thing to do making such a decision for another creature. Certainty is rare. I do know that no one else but a loving owner is in the best position to decide.
I have found that there was a point at which I was pretty clear about it. Either the animal had stopped being able to enjoy life and there was nothing I could do that would not be more of a hardship to them or I simply had no realistic options due to finances or the animal objecting to treatment. I just had to stew over it until that moment.
You have my sympathy. I think you will know when is the decision needs to be made, not that makes it ever easy.
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Post by mollymckee on Sept 5, 2016 16:25:18 GMT
We had a wonderful mare that stepped on a board with a nail in it that some kids had taken out of the hayloft floor then gotten tired of carrying through the pasture. She was lame the rest of the summer. Once it healed, she was afraid it would hurt, or at least that was all anyone could come up with. She loved attention and got lots of it while we tried to figure it out. We finally noticed that it was much worse if other horses were getting attention. The next spring she was completely sound, unless people were around and not paying attention to her. The rest of her life she would limp to get attention centered on her. She did have trouble remembering which hoof hurt. Sometimes she limped on the wrong leg, and it only hurt when another of our horses was getting too much attention. She never did it under saddle or even when she was lead, just in the pasture. She would do it for the rest of her life, just to get attention, we had trained her well.
My theory is to give an animal every chance to heal, unless it's obvious that isn't going to happen. Only you can tell if it's time.
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Maggie
Sept 6, 2016 10:17:27 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 6, 2016 10:17:27 GMT
Thank you HTS. Oh my, she sounds like quite the character MM! Glad she is doing better. It does help a lot to talk to folks that have been through this. To me, she doesn't seem there yet. Though... it Just breaks my heart to see her moving so stiff and slow some mornings. She still has her cheeky personality... gives me sniffy nose kisses, wants treats and lots of attention. Finances are pretty strained but she is not the only reason. Now if something else happens with something else, wouldn't be able to deal with it. Have two horses with Cushings, but Maggie is far worse. The other, only issue is her coat didn't quite shed off last spring. Then another horse that ended up with some very bad allergies since we moved here. Plus everything else. Makes me want to run away some days. Nice long vacation in Hawaii would be nice. LOL
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 6, 2016 12:24:22 GMT
bergere, I hear you! This past year has been a heck of a lot of NO FUN! It has been hooves and cuts this year for my herd, and danged if my lead gelding didn't come in totally off his left front for the second time in two years. Last night he finally blew an access out his coronary band, so this morning I'll be soaking it for a while and then stall time for the big guy. The last time he abcessed on that hoof, he lost over a quarter of the hoof before it was all over. It grew back nicely though, but too a year to get there. I also have one of my good TB mares stalled because my ranch hand left small metal roofing pieces on the ground one evening rather than putting them in the shed, and my mare cut her left hind hoof from the coronary band, through her heel bulb, and back into her hoof in a fishhook shape. Color me mad!! So she is getting soaked as well, and hopefully in another week or so she'll be able to get back out to graze. Until then, I have an OTTB stalled who really wants to be out pounding the turf and beating her pals to breakfast and dinner! I remember when my older TB mare had some hoof issues, it took a lot of years for her to finally figure out her left front was able to be stood on being barefoot while being shod. But, we still have to start on the front right foot and go around her clockwise to do her feet, or she will pitch a bloody fit because she "thinks" it will hurt to start on the front left and go around the other way. It is a learned behavior! I imagine your little mare will be ok. Cushings sure takes its toll, I am fostering a blind mare with Cushings, she has had a struggle getting back to feeling better, but she has started being more eager to move around and get going each day. It takes time, your little girl will come around. Do you have anything for her, like ButeLess or joint supplement that she can have?
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Maggie
Sept 27, 2016 14:04:38 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 27, 2016 14:04:38 GMT
((hugs)) Connor. Managed to talk the Vet into giving me some ACE and bute (giving her zantac to make sure she doesn't have gut issues). She was a lot more happy on the ACE than not. Muscles were a lot more soft. While there was a tiny bit improvement, not sure it is enough. Vet is supposed to be out here some time Friday afternoon and will talk to her about options. At this point, Maggie can barely get around, even with every thing I have been doing. I should see some improvement. With the ACE, she isn't as wobbly on the back end as she was, but she is still unsteady. She still gives me Sniffy nose kisses and nickers at me. Am totally out of money, CC's drained.... even if I had unlimited money, getting to the point, I don't think I could ever get her better. I have tried Bute-less, worked for awhile but it no longer works, Hot Hoof II,,,etc,etc,,... basically have tried just about every thing on her. (not at the same time ) My cabinets are full of supplements and meds, just for Maggie. She has special low sugar feed, has Softride medical boots for miniature horses, padded run in shed, message, liniment....
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Maggie
Sept 28, 2016 1:21:40 GMT
Post by aoconnor on Sept 28, 2016 1:21:40 GMT
I'm so sorry bergere , that is heartbreaking. Have you had a good farrier try to help manage her pain? I have a mare right now that is Navicular, and may farrier has done wonders for her. But Navicular and Cushings sore are two different things unfortunately. There is a product you could try, not sure if you have heard of it, but it's called HEIRO. It is a supplement for horses just like Maggie, with sore feet due to founder caused by metabolic imbalances, including Cushings. I have 3 horses on it for founder issues, all are very sound and able to graze normally. I put my blind Cushings mare on it while she was here and she stopped being sore and was back on pasture pretty quickly. Anyway, I'm sorry you have to go through this with Maggie:-(. If you would like to try the HEIRO before you end things, I would be glad to send you a container with a 30 day supply in it. It may or may not help, but it may be worth a try...
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Maggie
Sept 28, 2016 1:30:41 GMT
Post by aoconnor on Sept 28, 2016 1:30:41 GMT
Here is a link to the HEIRO information. Please let me know if you would like to try it...I can send it to you out of my supply. www.equinemedsurg.com/faq/heiro/
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Maggie
Sept 28, 2016 10:03:23 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 28, 2016 10:03:23 GMT
Thank you for the offer Connor. That stuff is way spendy!!! I have a really good Farrier. And she shouldn't be walking sore with the boots and pads she is wearing. Heavy sigh... nothing I do is helping.
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Maggie
Sept 28, 2016 10:05:34 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 28, 2016 10:05:34 GMT
I had to push out the Vet visit until Tuesday, as I forgot I had the farrier coming on Friday.
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Post by aoconnor on Sept 29, 2016 2:38:13 GMT
Thank you for the offer Connor. That stuff is way spendy!!! I have a really good Farrier. And she shouldn't be walking sore with the boots and pads she is wearing. Heavy sigh... nothing I do is helping. I wish you the best...I'm so sorry for you and sweet Maggie. I am truly glad to send you some of that stuff, no cost to you at all, if you want to just give it a try for a couple of weeks...the offer is there. It may be time for her, but it may be worth the try?
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Maggie
Sept 29, 2016 15:22:42 GMT
Post by bergere on Sept 29, 2016 15:22:42 GMT
Had to reschedule the Vet appointment for Tuesday... will talk to her then. But I really, really think she has had EPM too... specially with the staggering in her back end. IF the Vet would of treated her over a year and half ago for EPM, I don't think I would be seeing these issues now. She kept telling me no. Its not a "normal" serious founder I am seeing. Makes me really miss the Vet I had in NW Oregon. At this point, if it is EPM, the damage has been done. No pain meds work... only the ACE gives her relief, so that is telling me, its something neurological. Thank you so much Connor, that is very, very kind of you. I will let you know how it goes with the Vet on Tuesday.
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Post by aoconnor on Oct 1, 2016 2:20:12 GMT
bergere, It is so hard to watch them decline. I'm so sorry. Keep us posted as you are able.
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Post by aoconnor on Oct 6, 2016 16:02:08 GMT
bergere, any update? I've been thinking about you all week long.
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Maggie
Oct 6, 2016 16:22:49 GMT
Post by here to stay on Oct 6, 2016 16:22:49 GMT
bergere, It is so hard to watch them decline. I'm so sorry. Keep us posted as you are able. It is so true. I was just contemplating my 25 year old mare in the field and thinking that she doesn't look good. Her winter coat is coming in but it looks bumpy and she sort of looks "disconnected" in that I think she is losing muscle mass and her typical smooth, elegant top line. Of course that boat has long sailed for me too. Maybe I'm over identifying.....
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Maggie
Oct 6, 2016 16:38:16 GMT
Post by here to stay on Oct 6, 2016 16:38:16 GMT
bergere, I could sock myself on the side of the head. I just remembered I had a horse with chonic laminitis which was pretty well controlled by eliminating any alfalfa or grain other than oats from his diet so I had him for years, dealing with the resulting feet problems. He was what the vet termed "a sinker" in that his coffin bone didn't rotate but his white line stretched. The whole internal hoof structure sank and his feet were flat as a pancake. In fact, when his shoes were pulled for replacement, he was actually standing on his frog with the whole hoof wall and sole off the ground by the depth of the shoe. After much trial and error his soundness was achieved by a shock absorbing frog pad under a shoe that was thicker than normal. No fancy shoe but a keg shoe that kept his foot higher of the ground and away from contact with rocks and a frog support that kept his sole from sinking below the top surface of the shoe. Without the frog support, his sole just dropped from his weight til it hit the grouud, pad or no pad. I forget the brand of the pad but it was green and cushy flexible rather than rigid. With it, his hoof wall and sole were on level, not below, the frog when his shoes were pulled.
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Maggie
Oct 18, 2016 18:43:36 GMT
Post by bergere on Oct 18, 2016 18:43:36 GMT
Sorry about not updating. Still have Maggie. Got the Vet to give me more ACE. I have never had to deal with a Vet this long,that won't listen. I am far from stupid.. and really need a vet to be able to work with me. I have proven over and over again, I do know some things. I can write a book on how much this Vet is frustrating me. Always putting me down, always telling me I don't know what I am doing. Like Maggie always dumping her feed on the ground... Vet... oh,, you are causing Maggie to hurt, you have no idea what you are doing.... put her food one the ground like she wants. Tried to tell her, Maggie has always dumps her food on the ground.. this is a normal thing for her. Like Maggie always flipping over the "un-tip-able" feed pans, bucket, what ever, Maggie has fun tipping them upside down... just something Maggie has done the whole time I have owned her for over 14 years. Maggie is not doing it because she is in pain... Maggie is doing it because she is a twit. Oh.. but I can't be right. Anyway... Sadly, she is the only Vet that will come to this area..... I don't have a truck or trailer... and I honestly don't think Maggie is up for a trailer ride. Maggie is doing better with the ACE but no where near normal. HTS, problem with Mini's is you really can't put shoes on them. I have a pair of Softride medical boots... but they started to rub her heals and pasterns to the point they were getting infected no matter what I did. I also think Maggie did the sinker thing too. She had a nice deep foot, now its flat as a pancake. Doing what I can. Seriously, miss the good Vets I had in both NW WA and NW Oregon.
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Post by aoconnor on Oct 19, 2016 12:43:24 GMT
I'm so sorry your vet is treating you like that. I have several pan tippers, they just love playing with anything they can play with, even food containers. They toss them, pull them off the rails, tip them over...fun stuff!
I sure wish you had a vet who would work with you on Maggie's issue rather than treat you like you are stupid. It must be so frustrating. I'm so sorry.
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Post by here to stay on Oct 19, 2016 13:11:18 GMT
Re: pan tipping. Have you tried a feed box? That's a box that is like a feed trough except it is not raised. Strangely enough my vet told me about this option with my 'sinker', who would flip his hay like a shot putter, sending it twenty feet in the air and into the nearest mud puddle.
It's a 3x3' plywood cube that has a slot cut in the top. The horse sticks his head through the slot all the way into the box to eat. He can toss around the contents inside but the height of the box and the edges in the top keep the food inside. When I had shorter horses, I extended the slot down the front of the box til the horse could reach the bottom of the box comfortably and it still worked fine. It simply allowed the fun of flipping without wasting feed. I think for a mini you could do a smaller box. With one horse I did have to screw the whole box to the side of the stall as she developed the obnoxious habit of dragging the box around but most horses left it in place just fine.
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Post by aoconnor on Oct 19, 2016 14:52:21 GMT
Re: pan tipping. Have you tried a feed box? That's a box that is like a feed trough except it is not raised. Strangely enough my vet told me about this option with my 'sinker', who would flip his hay like a shot putter, sending it twenty feet in the air and into the nearest mud puddle. It's a 3x3' plywood cube that has a slot cut in the top. The horse sticks his head through the slot all the way into the box to eat. He can toss around the contents inside but the height of the box and the edges in the top keep the food inside. When I had shorter horses, I extended the slot down the front of the box til the horse could reach the bottom of the box comfortably and it still worked fine. It simply allowed the fun of flipping without wasting feed. I think for a mini you could do a smaller box. With one horse I did have to screw the whole box to the side of the stall as she developed the obnoxious habit of dragging the box around but most horses left it in place just fine. Ok, I know it's not intended to be funny, but that last line just cracked me up:-) I have so many obnoxious horses that would relish the box dragging fun. If I were to do boxes like that, they would have to welded to the stall wall or screwed into it aggressively! My nut jobs would be dragging those boxes all over the place.
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Post by here to stay on Oct 19, 2016 15:17:22 GMT
Re: pan tipping. Have you tried a feed box? That's a box that is like a feed trough except it is not raised. Strangely enough my vet told me about this option with my 'sinker', who would flip his hay like a shot putter, sending it twenty feet in the air and into the nearest mud puddle. It's a 3x3' plywood cube that has a slot cut in the top. The horse sticks his head through the slot all the way into the box to eat. He can toss around the contents inside but the height of the box and the edges in the top keep the food inside. When I had shorter horses, I extended the slot down the front of the box til the horse could reach the bottom of the box comfortably and it still worked fine. It simply allowed the fun of flipping without wasting feed. I think for a mini you could do a smaller box. With one horse I did have to screw the whole box to the side of the stall as she developed the obnoxious habit of dragging the box around but most horses left it in place just fine. Ok, I know it's not intended to be funny, but that last line just cracked me up:-) I have so many obnoxious horses that would relish the box dragging fun. If I were to do boxes like that, they would have to welded to the stall wall or screwed into it aggressively! My nut jobs would be dragging those boxes all over the place. I put a heavy duty eye bolt into a corner of the box and another to a wall stud then used a snap clip to connect the two.
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Post by bergere on Oct 19, 2016 16:44:44 GMT
Thanks Connor. Just find it ever so frustrating. HTS.. I do have a corner pan, bolted to the wall... no matter what... she chucks her food out. LOL Even ones with the special rings on them so they are not supposed to be able to toss their food out... she does. Its a great challenge and fun for Maggie. She can be really silly.
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Post by here to stay on Oct 20, 2016 1:46:52 GMT
Thanks Connor. Just find it ever so frustrating. HTS.. I do have a corner pan, bolted to the wall... no matter what... she chucks her food out. LOL Even ones with the special rings on them so they are not supposed to be able to toss their food out... she does. Its a great challenge and fun for Maggie. She can be really silly. It the high sides and partial top on the box that keep the food inside it. The horses can happily flip it around but not out of the box.
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Post by aoconnor on Nov 14, 2016 3:08:23 GMT
bergere, been thinking about you. How is Maggie?
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Post by bergere on Nov 14, 2016 20:35:48 GMT
((hugs) Connor for thinking of us. Found a Vet online that specializes in Cushing/IR/founder and so on. So I am taking Maggie for very short walks twice a day. Seems to be helping alot. My Vet wants her to stand still, its been nearly 2 years, no animal can stand still that long and not end up with other issues. She also said Maggie has super bad thrush.... she doesn't have any thrush.. she can't with what I have been using. No smell either. Then she goes, Maggie's hooves need to be trimmed every 2 weeks.... I have them done every 4 and there is barely anything to take off. Maggie dumped her food on the ground right in front of this Vet, and she says.. oh, you are making Maggie hurt, she is telling you to put her food on the ground. Tried to explain, Maggie wasn't doing this because she hurt (is a low feeder anyway), that Maggie has always dumped her food on the ground.. since the day I got her over 14 years ago. Maggie will dump trash cans, buckets, No flip feed pans.. she takes pride in being able to do these things and she likes an audience.. The twit.... Vet went on, on how wrong I was. Swear she is off the deep end. Always treating me like I am incredibly stupid. Need a Vet to be able to work with me, for the good of the animals. Only Vet in the area, other wise, I would of shown her the door. Anyway, the Farrier says her hooves are healed and she shouldn't be walking the way she was. My Farrier works with many Vets and the Equine Hospital. He is good at what he does. He couldn't believe that this Vet, called him, told him all the things I was doing wrong with Maggie, he told her, Maggie doesn't have thrush. That Maggie's angles are good as per the Xrays... etc... Farrier also thinks she might have EPM... but after two years of not being treated for it.... the Treatments don't work at this late date. The ACE is working well ... so that tells me what is going on with her is neurological. Sorry about that... just so very frustrated. Maggie is still giving me sniffy nose kisses, eating and puttering about.
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Post by aoconnor on Nov 15, 2016 12:54:30 GMT
I would be furious if that were my vet treating me like that. That is so unprofessional. Vent away, we iwll we here to listen.
At least it seems that Maggie is getting good farrier care and the ACE has helped ease her discomfort some, A good farrier is worth their weight in gold, for sure. Many prayers for you and you girl....
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Post by bergere on Nov 15, 2016 21:54:26 GMT
Thanks Connor.
Hopefully in a year or two I can move to Southern MD.
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Maggie
Nov 28, 2016 21:31:03 GMT
Post by bergere on Nov 28, 2016 21:31:03 GMT
Well, about the last week, Maggie hasn't gotten the relief she has getting with the ACE. I am at the point, that it might be better for her to let her go. Not an easy choice by any means. She is my wee heart horse.
She hasn't been able to run and play since this all started. Stuck in a little paddock, stiff, her back legs getting worse again. I have no doubt she has EPM too... but its been so very long while since I told the Vet she might have that too, and she didn't listen.
Been reading up on EPM... basically damage has been done, there is no fixing it, no matter how much money I throw into meds and so on. Some people have had good results with Qing Hao San, been trying to get the Vet to respond for 2 weeks.... she finally emailed me today, wants to talk. Will try calling her tomorrow.
Its just so very hard. Will have to have the neighbor dig a hole and get ready, should call them tomorrow. I want a magic wand to make Maggie better.
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