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Post by Rustaholic on Jun 23, 2015 14:35:17 GMT
Greeting folks.
I have five acres that used to be part of a 40 acre potato farm.
They grew potatoes here until the soil was all worn out.
With no chemicals I need to get this five acres back in good crop land.
I will do a couple soil tests soon then see where to go from there.
I would love your input here.
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Post by Melissa on Jun 23, 2015 15:31:48 GMT
No technical advice, but I would start adding any and every sort of compostable item I could find- manure, grass clippings, leaves, etc... Soil that is extremely depleted will need a lot. Since you have such a large area, maybe work on one section at a time.
On a much smaller scale, I knew someone who had a small garden that was not doing very well. They had been gardening in the exact same spot for 20 years, using miracle-gro and never put anything natural on the garden. The soil really looked dead. For the last few years they have been adding compostable items all fall and winter and tilling them in, and it is looking better, but still going to take a while.
ucanr.edu/sites/MarinMG/Marin_Master_Gardener_Help_Desk/Leaflet/How_to_build_healthy_soil/ |
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Post by hermitjohn on Jun 23, 2015 15:41:11 GMT
Look for a book called Plowmans Folly. Its old from 1940s. Available for download from an Australian site if I remember though I dont have link. Australians didnt buy into the forever extending of copyrights into perpetuity like Americans did. Another newer book called One Straw Revolution, much same principles only smaller scale. These techniques do work, though as I found out they work best in a wetter climate than where I live now. Ok, here it is, no downloading needed... journeytoforever.org/farm_library/folly/follyToC.html |
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Post by hermitjohn on Jun 23, 2015 15:46:00 GMT
No technical advice, but I would start adding any and every sort of compostable item I could find- manure, grass clippings, leaves, etc... Soil that is extremely depleted will need a lot. Since you have such a large area, maybe work on one section at a time.
On a much smaller scale, I knew someone who had a small garden that was not doing very well. They had been gardening in the exact same spot for 20 years, using miracle-gro and never put anything natural on the garden. The soil really looked dead. For the last few years they have been adding compostable items all fall and winter and tilling them in, and it is looking better, but still going to take a while.
ucanr.edu/sites/MarinMG/Marin_Master_Gardener_Help_Desk/Leaflet/How_to_build_healthy_soil/ Think green manure, buckwheat, field peas, winter rye, etc... or just naturally growing weeds. |
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Post by Melissa on Jun 23, 2015 15:48:02 GMT
I thought about telling them to plant something like this and plow it in, but we have to take baby-steps!! lol
They are exceptionally neat people and just getting them to throw the leaves and egg shells on the garden has been progress- because it looks messy. My garden is messy, but it grows lots and lots of food. |
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 15:55:48 GMT
grow what will grow and chop and drop...soil is built from top layer up.go look at the thread extreme composting at HT by forerunner. look up geoff lawton or mark shepard who lives in mid west to see what he has built for soil.geoff does stuff all over the world.
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 16:01:35 GMT
look at soil starting at 12 minute mark.
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 17:48:59 GMT
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Post by Rustaholic on Jun 23, 2015 19:02:26 GMT
look at soil starting at 12 minute mark.
I don't have 15 years to put into this property. |
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 19:14:29 GMT
look at soil starting at 12 minute mark.
I don't have 15 years to put into this property.if you want to stay away from commercial fertilizers theres only 2 options...hauling in every bit of fiber you can and manures and build piles like forerunner does...or do chop and drop of crops....it wont take 15 years...did you see how deep soil mark had on that spot in video....maybe first bit of time you might use chop and drop and a tiny bit of fertilizers...look at thread i gave link to and look how those folks in africa use micro fertilizing for tiny amounts of fertlizer. if you plant something like sudan and sudex type grasses you can get alot of matter chopped and dropped.theres one southern states has they say cut it for hay at 40days or 40 inches...i seen a friend let a field of it get ahead of him and big rain got on it..it was taller than his JD4440....thats alot of matter to bushhog down and build matter. remember this...it aint easy...well it is...but its work and time. |
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 19:16:56 GMT
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 19:22:05 GMT
you can plant sudan,sudex type stuff plus turnips,sunflowers,milo,rape,wheat,rye,winter radishes,legumes like clovers
4 years of milo stalk residue has done wonders for a field i own.
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Post by elkhound on Jun 23, 2015 19:31:36 GMT
this place has the best assortment of crop seeds i have ever seen.they have items i have never heard of . hancockseed.com/hope all this helped and good luck. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 20:26:47 GMT
You want to heal land, put animals on it.
Multiple Methods:
A) Use a movable fence system. Cows can be kept behind the cheapest fencing, goats would be a better option if there is brush to get rid of. Keep them in one spot until they've trampled down what they don't want to eat, then move them and let the land rest up to a year until it recovers. They should be moved very frequently, the densest systems move more than once a day. This is the slower method, but requires fewest resources.
B) Pack them in a small space and buy in hay. Put big round bales every 20-40 feet all around, several months worth all in at once. Plan on extra hay because this is rather wasteful of hay. The animals will trample everything, scatter the hay into a mulch, and poop everywhere. It will look like a disaster, but next year you till that and it will be great. If you can't afford to do that to the whole place at once, next year you move your fence and claim a different patch.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 23, 2015 20:57:08 GMT
If you are in an area with a lot of "urban forests", arrange to collect every leaf that the municipality has to dispose of. That's the best way of replenishing phosphorus and potassium. Nothing that you plant can manufacture those two if it isn't already there. Wood chips are often available in abundance but their nutritional value may be almost nil. Their main benefit would be potentially bettering the soil structure.
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 0:51:32 GMT
What do you intend to do with this land. Me, I would plant pasture after checking PH. and adding all the manure/compost you can find. Can/will you allow lime? Lime if needed and plant pasture grasses and clover or other legume, inoculate seed to set nitrogen. Run livestock but do not let them overgraze, keep weeds bush hogged and harrow the manure, spring and fall....James
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 1:31:28 GMT
Go with Green Manure, Compost and Lime, run soil Test. Go from there. Rotate what your wanting to plant.
This is all you can do.
At least you still have soil. I bought a place on Prairie, thought it should have Good Soil. Found the Guy I had bought the place off of skimmed all the Top Soil off, sold it, then buried tons of Junk, then seeded Fescue over it to cover everything up.
Rockpile
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Post by spacecase0 on Jun 24, 2015 5:27:28 GMT
my trick is to grow something on the ground that will grow there, barley always seems to grow, mix in a nitrogen fixer if possible then till it in right as it starts to sets seeds if you can get organic mater from wherever and till it in as well, leaves, straw, charcoal, and wood chips are perfect you might also like some of the books in the Agriculture Library section www.soilandhealth.org/specifically this book soilhealthweb.org/book/the-farm-that-wont-wear-out/ |
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Post by Rustaholic on Jun 24, 2015 13:20:52 GMT
What do you intend to do with this land. Me, I would plant pasture after checking PH. and adding all the manure/compost you can find. Can/will you allow lime? Lime if needed and plant pasture grasses and clover or other legume, inoculate seed to set nitrogen. Run livestock but do not let them overgraze, keep weeds bush hogged and harrow the manure, spring and fall....James Go with Green Manure, Compost and Lime, run soil Test. Go from there. Rotate what your wanting to plant. This is all you can do. At least you still have soil. I bought a place on Prairie, thought it should have Good Soil. Found the Guy I had bought the place off of skimmed all the Top Soil off, sold it, then buried tons of Junk, then seeded Fescue over it to cover everything up. Rockpile Everywhere I have checked here Lime is the wrong way to go. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 14:12:49 GMT
Why? Just wondering, PH too high already? If it is not needed then no....James
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 15:00:55 GMT
You got 5 acres to play with. Get a small bag of lime and spread it in a few different concentrations on test patches. See if it helps or hurts. The calcium boost might be helpful even if your pH is fine.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 24, 2015 15:37:03 GMT
As is always the rule, if lime isn't needed then don't add any. It's a whole lot easier to not make a mistake than to correct it. Some common vegetables won't germinate well in soil which is high in alkalinity. Planting a half-pound of snap beans and have only a couple dozen germinate usually does little for gardening morale. Waiting until the following year doesn't do much for filling bellies, either.
Martin
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Post by Rustaholic on Jun 24, 2015 17:29:53 GMT
When I was working on a garden up here tests showed I needed to add sulfur at three pounds per 200 square feet once every year for four years.
Instead I put 70 bags of oak leaves into my 45 X 48 foot garden and had a wonderful crop.
It is just rather hard to get enough leaves for five acres.
I guess I will add whatever oak leaves I have and work up a quarter acre and plant some kind of green manure crop.
As soon as I can till that in I just want to keep it worked up and hit it again as soon as weeds pop up.
I do have some buckwheat seed. That will have to be my manure crop.
Does this seem like it will help.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 24, 2015 18:31:53 GMT
Since tests show no lime was needed, continue with every oak leaf that you can get your hands on. Plow them under or till them in no matter what form you get them. The P and K values are both high and will help to restore both.
Buckwheat as a cover crop and green manure is a good idea. If you have any beekeepers within 5 or 6 mile radius, they will either love or hate you. If they are after dark honey, they'll love you for it. If after clear honey, won't be appreciated as much.
Martin
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Post by Bear Foot Farm on Jun 24, 2015 22:55:42 GMT
Planting "cover crops" might help the texture of the soil, but they aren't addng any nutrients.
After soil tests tell you what's needed, you will be better off to haul in as much manure and organic material as you can.
Then plant a cover crop to keep those nutrients near the surface, and to help retain soil and moisture
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Post by paquebot on Jun 25, 2015 2:31:39 GMT
Planting "cover crops" might help the texture of the soil, but they aren't addng any nutrients. True as far as the P & K are concerned since they can only recycle exactly what's already there. The "green manure" use puts nitrogen into the soil and that's their main importance. That's the one element that can be increased merely by planting something. Martin |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 6:18:02 GMT
On similar soil, we've used the scrapings from a cattle feedlot to make raised beds, planted lots of tomatos and peppers, and traded for other crops. After harvest, the field was sowed with a mix of rye and field peas. Following the first frost we plowed the raised beds and green manure into the field. Through the winter, various animal manures and vegetable wastes (hay, leaves, etc)were scattered on the field. The cycle was repeated the following spring.
By the third year, we were able to till and plant in the ground. (The year after that, of course, my friend sold the place.)
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Post by Rustaholic on Jun 29, 2015 23:24:52 GMT
On similar soil, we've used the scrapings from a cattle feedlot to make raised beds, planted lots of tomatos and peppers, and traded for other crops. After harvest, the field was sowed with a mix of rye and field peas. Following the first frost we plowed the raised beds and green manure into the field. Through the winter, various animal manures and vegetable wastes (hay, leaves, etc)were scattered on the field. The cycle was repeated the following spring. By the third year, we were able to till and plant in the ground. (The year after that, of course, my friend sold the place.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 2:59:40 GMT
On similar soil, we've used the scrapings from a cattle feedlot to make raised beds, planted lots of tomatos and peppers, and traded for other crops. After harvest, the field was sowed with a mix of rye and field peas. Following the first frost we plowed the raised beds and green manure into the field. Through the winter, various animal manures and vegetable wastes (hay, leaves, etc)were scattered on the field. The cycle was repeated the following spring. By the third year, we were able to till and plant in the ground. (The year after that, of course, my friend sold the place.) I thought about it, briefly. Too many problems with the location for me: geographic location, siting (north slope of a hill), size, etc. It never would have been "home" for me, but the guy who bought it thinks he's found heaven. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 6:48:28 GMT
Depleted soil can't be fixed, it has to be covered and new soil built up on top. Eventually the nutrients from the new soil will leach down, but you have to build it before that can happen. Use chickens to prepare it, then start planting a food forest, one small section at a time using the Geoff Lawton method.
In the meantime, you could build a B2E garden or a RGGS garden to provide food for your family.
Do some video watching on youtube, specifically searching for "food forest" "back to eden garden" and "rain gutter grow system". You'll find tons of great info by people who have done it and succeeded at it. I love watching how others have solved the problem and then copy what they did.
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